I’m posting this in the evocation section and not the voodoo section because I find it relevant. I just read Carlos Montenegros intro book on Quimbanda Goeatia. In it classifys the 72 goetia as dieties of the astral kingdom. I’m trying to get more information on how or even if they do evocations of these spirits. I will make a note. I dont really understand though. He says that you can learn to practice it just from reading books. In systems like Palo and Santeria you have to be initiated. That means an actual spirit gets put into your head to assist you in your life. Does anyone have any info on how to learn more about quimbanda Goeatia?
Quimbanda Goetia is a load of crap. It’s based on the synchronization between demons and exus, which are almost always meaningless. You cannot practice true Quimbanda from books. You must be initiated. It is an ADR just like Santeria and Palo. The initiated can, however, interact with the exus who walk with them rather safely. I included a link below. To find that out, you get a consulta from tata or yaya of Quimbanda, and that will tell you your personal exu, your personal Pomba Gira, your working exu or Pomba Gira (depends on your gender), other exus who may walk with you, as well other little tidbits of info. But if you’re just looking to talk to the spirits of the Goetia, look elsewhere.
[url=http://www.starrycave.com/2014/05/the-firmeza-of-quimbanda.html?m=1]The ‘firmeza’ of Quimbanda
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Actually, Tata Frisvold explains initiation in his book Pomba Gira. I’ve also spoken to a quimbandeiro with license.
There are certain things you will learn and get that you simply cannot get without license. There’s a certain something you will throw (the very instrument is secret) and words of authority that call upon the hierarchy to question a spirit and be sure that they are not lying. You will also be taught how to calm the spirits when they get too fiery. Then there’s actually performing magic with them and exus outside of your spiritual court.
Frisvold says on page 12 that it is necessary partly for the oath, to keep the cult safe from gross mutilation, and reinstall a link with the retinue of spirits.
Why did Poete remove his post?
[quote=“Euoi, post:2, topic:3609”]Quimbanda Goetia is a load of crap. It’s based on the synchronization between demons and exus, which are almost always meaningless. You cannot practice true Quimbanda from books. You must be initiated. It is an ADR just like Santeria and Palo. The initiated can, however, interact with the exus who walk with them rather safely. I included a link below. To find that out, you get a consulta from tata or yaya of Quimbanda, and that will tell you your personal exu, your personal Pomba Gira, your working exu or Pomba Gira (depends on your gender), other exus who may walk with you, as well other little tidbits of info. But if you’re just looking to talk to the spirits of the Goetia, look elsewhere.
[url=http://www.starrycave.com/2014/05/the-firmeza-of-quimbanda.html?m=1]The ‘firmeza’ of Quimbanda that makes alot of sense because in Palo you have to have the license to work with the spirits just like in santeria and all the other Caribbean traditions. I was just interested because of the 72 goeatia. I wouldnt advise trying to work with a palo spirit unless your scratched. Theres some pots you recieve that are just for you family and God Children not clients. Its interesting.
Yes, the only reason you can’t ‘learn it from a book’ is that the books don’t exist because the established religious mafia want you to submit yourself to them before they will teach their knowledge. That is why I will never be initiated, and I have no reason to be when all of their ‘secrets’ can be obtained directly from the spirits themselves. I removed my post because I actually don’t want a debate on this.
But to anyone who claims that initiation is necessary, I ask:
WHO INITIATED THE FIRST INITIATORS?
I rest my case.
I totally agree with you on one hand All I have to go by is what I’m initiated in. I cant tell people about it because its a promise that you have to make when u become part of the Munanso. You become part of thier family. The spirits in that are all about respect and honor and they respect it. Ive been to alot of Ocha drummings, When the Orishas come down and posess their kids. They dont really speak to people that arent Santeros or Santeras. Unless its really important to tell the non iniate. It sucks because it costs money but I need more of a structured setting with rules to go by. Palo has atleast 500 years of solid structure and tradition in Cuba. So does Ocha. I cant speak for anybody else but for me I need that. I wish I didnt but I do. You guys are all very gifted to be able to hear spirits. I talk to spirits in my dreams. I have telepathic conversations with demons when I evoke them but who knows if its in my head. I might not be getting the whole message. With these systems theres no need to rely on that. its all numbers and memorization. But its alot of memorization. ifa has a combonation of up to 2 million different stories with all the different combonations. They say its eating the head of the rat. Not all at once because it will splinter and you will choke. little by little. The people I see that are the most fucked up are the ones that just wing it and what they think is right not what theyre told. Me included. But I’m learning that you have to listen otherwise your going to fuck up your life And its not the spirits fucking up your life. Its a reaction to the action that YOU set in motion. I’m saying this because I consider myself to be one the most hard headed stubborn MOTHERFUCKER on the planet.
Yes, the only reason you can’t ‘learn it from a book’ is that the books don’t exist because the established religious mafia want you to submit yourself to them before they will teach their knowledge. That is why I will never be initiated, and I have no reason to be when all of their ‘secrets’ can be obtained directly from the spirits themselves. I removed my post because I actually don’t want a debate on this.
But to anyone who claims that initiation is necessary, I ask:
WHO INITIATED THE FIRST INITIATORS?
I rest my case.[/quote]
I have to agree. Anyone who says initiation is required has something to gain like money/power, or like the way they feel when they can pretend they’re in a exclusive secret club
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It would be interesting to hear what the spirits themselves have to say regarding this.
quimbanda goetia is like taco licorice or $3 bills. it doesn’t exist.
i swear these occult authors have great imaginations.
Actually, Lucifer isn’t necessarily the head if the hierarchy. Exu Rei can be Exu Sete Liras (the original Quimbanda name of the exu who was later synchronized with Lucifer), Exu Rei das Sete Encruzilhadas, or Exu Mor depending on each house
The one thing that will tell you whether someone is writing legit Quimbanda or not is I’d they or any emphasis at all on your personal spirits. Everybody is supposed to have them. You don’t nature altars to random exus or this “Quimbanda trinity”. You begin with your personal exus, the ones that walk with you and reflect your nature. Doing so is immensely beneficial, merely feeding them on a weekly basis will cause change. At least, for people who don’t easily loose their heads.
Quimbanda is from the 1960’s btw, it’s a relatively young religion.
Lucifer is the head of the demonic hiearchy in the Goetia, but in Quimbanda they are both carriers of alchemical fire that is the center of creation
This is what I was responding to when I talked about Lucifer. You also said “Exu Rei (King Exu, Lucifer”. Both of such aren’t necessarily true as I stated. And by saying that exu Rei is Lucifer, you implied him being the head of the hierarchy.
I admit, you got me on the years. I was only aware that Quimbanda had become much more defined and separate from Umbanda from the '60’s onwards. However, to say that Quimbanda is as old as the 19th century is inherently fallacious. What we know today add Umbanda didn’t even really begin until 1900. Not to say the terms Umbanda and Quimbanda were in use before that. But the religions themselves, are still little over 100 years old.
To be honest, Quimbanda was extremely interesting to me when it was openly and brazenly evil and its own practitioners stressed ruthlessness, amorality and material gain. Now it’s cluttered with sanctimonious bullshitters talking religion and bloviating about who is and is not an authentic initiate, so that I don’t see much point in pursuing it over native English/European systems.
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I don’t see how Quimbanda can actually be evil. It’s just the way it is perceived.
There are exus of a dark and unsettling nature just as there exus of a stable and supportive disposition. If the only thing that attracted you to Quimbanda was it’s image of evilness, then it was only a superficial desire. The only reason I got involved was because the spirits called me into it. Otherwise, I wouldn’t really care.
You could argue that it’s the same with any ADR. In Mexico, people think that Santeria is this dark evil religion, much how some Brazilians regard Quimbanda. When the reality is that it isn’t, more balanced than anything else.
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No, what interested me were some of the earliest writings in English by actual practitioners who spoke pretty frankly about how dark and materialistic it was. I think what is called Quimbanda today is a religionized version of what used to go by that title. What interested me was that you got the effect without the sanctimony or pretensions to morality, and without benevolent gods on pedestals.
I really don’t see what you’re talking about though. Can you link me to these early writings you mention?
Your first paragraph makes no sense. You try to defend yourself but end up agreeing with me.
I agree with the second.
i get the feeling that quimbanda is being made up in real time and goetia was tacked onto it as a current because goetia is effective magick, but that’s only my opinion fwiw.
ok enough philosophy for today
I read that article about the guy’s trip Brazil. Clearly he has very little idea about what he’s talking about. Quimbanda statues of Baphomet are used to represent Exu Mor, who is synchronized with Beelzebub. His image simply fits the ashé of Mor, that’s why they use it.
I do not deny that there are western ceremonial influences on Quimbanda. ADRs tend to be very open to synchronization and open to evolution. However, what in arguing against calling Montenegro’s works “Quimbanda”, because it is not. Legit Quimbanda starts off with finding out the spirits that walk with your, same as any other ADR. Without the relationship with threat spirits, there can be no Quimbanda.
I know fora fact exus are present in other traditions, including one I heard about where peoplesdrum and drink ayhuasca (sp?). But that is not Quimbanda.
As for Exu Rei’s ponto, I believe Tata Frisvold talks about its meaning in Exu and the Quimbanda of night and fire. The sun represents the angelic host led by St Michael the Maioral who gives fire to Exu Rei. I can’t remember any other of the explanations he gives.
I had to rack my brain for a while, I eventually figured out that my first introduction to Quimbanda was in Paul Gregor’s “Magic + Sex = Religion.” While he reflected a lot on and drew primarily from his experiences in Quimbanda while writing that book, he’d moved past it by then, though there are some pretty hair-raising anecdotes in there. His full book on the subject is called “Diary of a Sorcerer,” but it’s never been translated into English, although I think I found a few passages somewhere or other. His collected works used to be online, but I couldn’t find the site again when I looked for it.