Philosophical Argument of Will

General Discussion
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Well. The statement is all that exists, and not exist, and have existed, etc… is essentially one. So, our will is also one. One interesting point to see this, is in the language. We can only give meaning to our sentences under a context. The subject “a dog”, implies an universal dog, one dog, essentially. “The dog, my dog, etc”

The last statement is contained in a paradox. It is only through the dividuation (I don’t know if this word exists in english, but in my main language exists - romance language -), that is, the opposite of individuation. Dividuation is the act of dividuate - divide -. So an individual one, is one who cannot self-divide. It is suppose we are individual - that is partially true, like many other things -. We are also dividual ones, who can self-divide. As the universe, existence, or whatever you call it. So, in the process of separation - like the term is used in this forum -, “dividuation”, is when context emerge. Out of this, the language - mathematics or natural language - that symbolize reality, is only contains the speech of one mind.

So, this kind of higher self or will could be only the reflection of this one mind in that process of dividuation.

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Hey man lay off the methamphetamine.

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I am confused by your implied correlation between “dividuation” and “individuation”. Are you saying that this “one” mind or will is divided among us, and in that dividing the individual is formed, or that parts of this “one” are contained within individuals and because of this they are connected to it?

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The first one. Look at the world. The principle of emergency. Your body emerges from cells, and these ones from atoms, resulting in very complex conscious from very simple ones. Compare the greatest being or conscious that can exists to the smallest one; being, conscious or organized structure. I can detail more, but this is a post, not an essay, unless you want.

If you substract all biological needs, chemical reactions, and every switch from the world, physical, astral or mental. What will you get? The will. And maybe, and only maybe that’s the reason the law is the will. Because all is it. Let’s take your mind. Your mind inside is in fact, one world. You imagine stories, recreate characters, and personifies fantasies.

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Please do.

Yes, the will, a nefarious force that propels us for no reason outside of the reasons we fabricate.

Also true. But what if I told you I believed human consciousness to be an illusion in and of itself, and human life is like a complex dream we are all having about being people?

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I think I understand the question you’re asking.

From what I gather consciousness runs like light. Both quantum chaos and newtonian cause and effect play a part depending on different factors.

At one end of the spectrum you have the wave function where you are merged with your state and operate more like a machine. Cause -> Effect. This is where results happen.

As you step back from the experience there is the sense of being more than the contents, feelings, and thoughts in one’s mind and living experience. This is where the space is between stimulus and response.

The more head room one has the more perspective one has. This makes the difference between getting in a fight over a sports team (of all stupid things) and having enough forsight to walk away from a drunk idiot who wants to roll around on the dirty floor at the bar.

Far enough back and you have “particle state” (as an allegory) where you can observe the factors at play. The thoughts, emotions, contents, patterns, etc.

“This is where the magick happens!” - Every MTV Cribs episode ever

At the extreme other end of this cycle/spectrum there is no self. You go here every night when you sleep and slip to the void, zero state.

At the deeper levels everything is the same energy, the same fundamental force that constructs everything else. From this level everything can be manipulated to create the observer experience.

It sounds like a paradox because you’re using two different sets of rules to measure what boils down to Hermetics. You can’t use classical physics on it’s own to study light. Same with consciousness. Otherwise we’d just be extremely complex biochemical robots. Put X in, get Y out.

Due to this osscilation of states (which move all over the place in an instant) we have the space for will as well as the capacity to be influenced ourselves.

Will exists, sometimes. Depends on the state of consciousness. Full immersion and you’re nearly a robot. Pulled back from immersion and you have perspective and choice.

And then in some states consciousness doesn’t exist at all. All is mind.

Dig into the Kyballion and get a brief grasp the Hermetic Principles. Use it as an anchor to run other philosophies through. It will begin to make more and more sense from other points of view.

The book is basically a practical blueprint for the universe and the self if you can trip out hard enough to grasp it. I’ve got other allegories if this doesn’t make sense

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Well. It doesn’t matter if its an illusion or not. As humans, we are moving constantly by axioms. Language, mathematics, science. All is built by this axioms. We can redifine it, but we cannot go through them. My point is the next one:

Let’s see the next reasons. You have the primum movens, or the incaused cause. For example, what is a number? Its an example of this. Or, what is the definition of definition? However, if you can go deeper, you eventually top out. For example, there are smaller things than quarks (and you know smaller particles than atoms)?, and if we discover some smaller that compose quarks, what would be the limit? You get it. You have two options. You have no limit, so in this case your axioms, your irreductible prepositions about reality, are infinite, and you can’t know it. On the other hand, there is a limit, and eventually you will find or not.

And this is very related with the concept of order. What is order? Definition. And a definition is limitation. What is a chair? An object where you can sit and has four legs. But a chair is not a boat or a house. The will is also very similar. The will answer the question, what I WANT? You cannot want everything, because some things exclude others. You cannot be a bird if you want be a lion. On the other hand, you have chaos. What is chaos? Well, see entropy. It is everything the same. No differentiation. There are no boats nor chairs, because everything is mixed and is the same. The primordial point of the creation.

Chaos beings is an oxymoron by this statement. How can be a being, chaotic, if it is different from others?

So, in this point, will is a cause of the order. But what is the cause of will? Well, you get your axiom. Will is will.

Connecting with the first paragraph, the process of dividuation is the emergence of order. Things became differentiate one each other. Imagine the first moment, the emptiness. There is no will here. Will cannot answer the question what I want? Because nobody wants no thing. As existence become. This existence claim, I want. What do you want? A voice asks. And the existence discover it cannot want everything, so it has to separate and differentiate. And the order borns. I hope you can get my little story. Will is the answer, and being is the question. So when there is no question, there is no answer. Go deeper, how did the question born? Perceiving self-ignorance. You discovered you are naked in the Eden.

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Sorry because I can’t understand your point. Could you explain again or try to reformulate? I mean the point when you introduce the comparative between classical physics and quantum, is when I get completely lost.

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Sure man, connect the two paradoxes of consciousness to physics

Classical physics is cause and effect.

Most approaches to psychology looks at cause and effect. Someone smacks your girl’s ass at a bar and you punch him because you’re mad. Get ignored as a child and you correct the balance subconsciously by attention seeking.

Very math based. Put X in, get Y out.

This happens when you merge and identify with the experience. When you’re in the moment and things are going great everything just flies effortlessly.

Here’s the thing though, we can pull back and observe this whole process. We can sit back and watch our thoughts and feelings like watching clouds in the sky.

This is the weird part.

When you do this the inner experience stops being what it was. It’s all energy and can be redirected. If you’re mad at your boss you can pull back and redirect the emotion as motivation to get a new job.

If we didn’t have will it would require a certain level of anger to force this process to happen eventually. Mathematically. Because one can pull back from the life experience into the observer state they can plan and act by seeing the pattern and making a choice before the big Cause and Effect moment happens that’s usually more volatile.

It ties in with the whole, as above so below axiom. If the universe operates via two sets of rules, the mind must as well. Hence the quantum metaphor.

At the quantum level the observer influences everything to behave differently. Things go where you expect them to, they freeze up from the flow state (wave function) (like we do when we get in our heads) and infinite possibility becomes the norm rather than a very predictable hard Cause = Effect equation.

This “space” we pull back into is the spectrum between being merged with the whole of an experience, and having none at all. (Sleep, death, zero state)

Pull back the layers of the onion far enough and there is no self. All is the same substance and reality is just existence experiencing itself.

That make a bit more sense? Think about being in the moment and being in your head trying to figure out what to say to a girl and notice the contrast. Two sets of rules are at work

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Are you a mathematician? You talk like a high level Ph.D I’m friends with when he’s all excited about work.

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Dear Norski, sorry for late answer. But I need to think about my answer.

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This is the model which I represent the world. I’m gonna try to place in context the main ideas. For what I think (just preliminar ideas) the perception of entities, is just being capable of perceive potentials, capabilities. Take the next example; A person is able to talk. Can you perceive an ability of talk? Not, you just hear the words (physical interactions) he says. This the astral realm. All the nouns in the image are synonimus. The other chance is that you are actually putting in contact with other dimensional beings. Again, you can represent two and one dimensions. But do you know some two-dimensional beings? No, right? So I think evocation is more connected with energies that with other dimensional beings. Just, an hypothesis. Take a look on the archetype of genius, like the arab book one thouusand and one nights. What is a genius? An autonomous being that are able to grant things to wizard. Personified potential.

About what you talk in the last comment. I understand the difference between the determinism, you put X in, get Y out. Simple. And in the indeterministic world you have the wave function (probabilities to be in one point or place or whatever you want). In this model, physical would be deterministic and astral would be indeterministic.

But you have to solve the problem about locality. How is possible that many people in different places are invoking/evoking the same being? You have different hypothesis:

  1. The entities are not the same.
  2. The entities are not constrain to laws we are.

The option 1 implies the model that chaos magick theory assume. (In spite of that both can coexist) ( I have to think)

I have to finish the answer, it will take me some days.

Basically, ignorance come from two different things; a lack of experience and wrong formulations in languages.