My rare introduction to Hatian/Dominican Voodoo

Hello guys,

Today i want to talk to you about an experience i had this week, in my search of somebody to channel a conversation between me and King Paimon in my country, Dominican Republic.

As i have mentioned before, i am very new to black magick, all i know are things i have read from Crowley’s books and EA’s videos, the rest of the magical knowledge i have its pure white magick which i learned in a Gnostic White lodge.

On tuesday, i decided to go out and start my quest, i went to 2 diferent ppl that work with divination, the first one, among everything he told me about my personal life, told me that i have ‘‘Mysteries’’ and that im aware of them, a term i didnt know how to interprete comming from them, i didnt ask what he ment bu that tho’, but after he was finishing with his candle divination, i told him what i was looking for, he then told me that he just deals with white magick and that cant help me, but told me about a guy that would be able to help me, he stated that he dont currently know where that guy lives at right now exactly, he just remember the town where he lives and the area, but was gonna call me on thursday or friday to give me the exact address.

After that i went to another lady, who gives tarot readings, once again among the personal details of my life she also told me, that i have ‘‘Mysteries’’, and when she was finished i told her what i was looking for too, this lady refered me to a guy, appearently the same guy that the guy who gave me the candle magic reading, told me about, same area same town, she told me that this guy, is able to ‘‘Raise my mysteries’’ to get me working right away, explained that what they do is that they ‘‘Prepare’’ my brain for me to receive and work along with this ‘‘Mysteries’’ meaning the prepare my brain for me to be able to see, hear and work with my ‘‘Mysteries’’.

So next day i went to that town where she refered me to, and started looking for this guy, i had all information needed to get to him, when i arrived at the town, i started asking around for this man, whom according to her the whole town knew him, so it was gonna be easy for me to find.

Here comes the interesting part.

Nobody knew the guy, nobody even knew anybody that worked with the occult aroudn the area, so i sent somebody to ask the lady who gave me the directions to call me back so she can guide me on where to go, so while i was waitigin for her to call back i kept on asking around, and i stopped in an specific house to ask for the guy, a gentleman received me, and asked me what i wanted, i explained to him who i was looking for but he told me that he didnt know the guy, but that most likely i was refered to him because he is a full time black magician! (what are the odds?) i told him who refered me to , and that the lady who did told me they know eachother very well so he was gonna recognize her name, but this gentleman did not know the lady and found it weird cuz he dont know nobody around the area who deals with black magick, he was the only one, and wasnt something that everybody knew about him, just a few ppl knew of him and his practices, which is the reason why he took me in.

We both came to the conclusion that he was not the guy, and it was too much of a coincidence for us to meet in those circumstances, and since i was there already he wanted to help me in what i was looking for, so we stepped into his working room where he had his altar, with lots of well known local Dieties or ‘‘Saints’’ as they call it here.

He had me send somebody to buy a candle for me,while the guy was getting the candle he explained to me that the only way to get what i want done is to get somebody who can resist a possesion of this spirit so i can then communicate with it, when the candle arrived, he draw some lines with his nails in the candle, had me light it up and place it in the altar, next he covered his eyes with his hand, and started vomiting even tho nothing came out of his mouth, after a few seconds he came to himself looked at the candle, and told me that there was a Hatian voodoo priest in haiti waiting for me to help me out with what i was looking for, he himself didnt advice me to work with hatians appearently he doesn’t trust them that much, neither do i, even th i have lots of hatian friends i just dont trust all of them due to personal experiences.

Ask me who this hatian guy was and i told him i dont know, then like it just came to his mind he said ok now i know where he lives, and pointed me to his exact address in ‘‘Puerto Principe’’ which is the capital of Haiti, he lives in the mountains and was very rich was what he told me.

He adviced me of the dangers of me going there and the dangers of me pursing what i was looking for, our conversation went through very smoothly like we both needed somebody to talk to about this things, since you guys know is hard for u to find somebody to talk to about this things.

He then told me, that i had a lot of mysteries in me, and that this mysteries i was not born with, but came to me throught my life, he stated that i had lots of ‘‘White entities’’ protecting me, and just one entity that falls in the ‘‘Black’’ category, i ask him who that entity was and he said ‘‘SAN ELIAS’’ Also known locally as ‘‘El baron del cementerio’’ or ‘‘The baron of the cementery’’ (translated to english from spanish).

At this point was when i realized that Voodoo is the main practice in my country, i kinda knew it before even tho i never actually studied it, i just tho’ that the same basic knowledge i learned from EA and a few occult books, was gonna be the same system and belives of black magick wherever i go, and i was wrong.

Until now, i haven’t mentioned to none of the ppl i consulted who was it that i wanted to get in contact with, so after this gentleman and i got confortable talking to eachother i told him who was the entety i wanted to contact, i was very surprised that he did not know who King Paimon was, i explained to him that he is one of the 9 demonic kings, and he then told me, i havent heard of him, and i have actually worked with the 18 kings of hell, there are 18 not 9, throught the whole conversation the only entity i recognize of all the ones he named to use as an example in the conversation was Lucifuge who appearently he has worked with before.

Something that surprised me about this was the approach they have on evokation of theese spirits or evokation of any demonic entity whatsoever,
it seems like every evokation is a life or death event in voodoo, when i told him who i wanted to contact he automaticly asked me, ‘‘How many ppl will you offer him?’’, i told him none, then he said, ‘‘Are you gonna offer your soul then as an exchange?, that is how it works you know that right? they will ask you for blood’’, i then told him, that is now the way it works according to the systems i study, theese entities are more like teachers, and will accept offerings that have nothing to do with you killing somebody or offering my soul for me to get into an agreement with them, nevertheless for me to actually talk to this entity and basically ask for guidance.

I then ask him what ‘‘Mysteries’’ are according to voodoo, and what they mean when they say ‘‘To raise your mysteries’’, he then explained to me that mysteries are entities, when they Raise your mysteries, they talking about activating the awareness of the individual to be able to work with entities around you that will help you out with your work.

He continied the conversation by explaning to me how his system works and how his experiences are, he stated that is not how it works, frst of all you have to protect yourself before summoning one of this entities, and the main tool needed for all of this is the ‘‘Solomon’s key’’ (which i did read long time ago) because since the moment you summon them, DEATH is just one step away.

If you stop talking, demanding what you want from him.

DEATH

If you freeze out of fear when he first manifests which will always be in an unpleasent. way, with the intention to scare me.

DEATH.

If i dont comply with his demands after agreeing a pact,

DEATH.

If one day i forget to comply with one of his demands problably is because the demon is aiming to kill me, and if i dont recognize that moment soon enough and trick the demon with a ‘‘LIFE EXCHANGE’’ ritual then,

DEATH.

After i set up my personal space for me to work with this entities, whoever traspasses that space, will end up in.

DEATH.

All pacts with theese entities last for 21 years.

I then explained to him, that the system i am familiar with does not work like that, i am not interested in working with any entity that will demand those things from me, and i will not offer my soul to any entity i explained.

After the conversation we felt confortable with eachother, and i told him i wanted to learn more from him, he then told me before i give you an answer i gotta contact my ‘‘Friends’’ meaning the entities he works for, and ask them what can be done for me, and that he was gonna call me in the morning to let me know the answer.

Fun fact:

After i left his house, the lady that refered me to him called me and gave me the address, which was a diferent address than the one i had from her initially, she stated that she clearly sent me to a nearby town which was not the town where i currently was at, even tho i wrote the address down in paper when she gave it to me the first time.

I came back home, and started researching into all he told me, located a small local grimoire for Voodoo, and was able to verify that all enteties that the voodoo works with or the more commonly known are entities from the Death current, which explains why Death was always involved in the conversation i had with this gentleman, this entities work and reside in the graveyards, and i was surprised to see that the black entity he says that walks with me ‘‘El baron del cementerio’’ is the boss or king of all these other entities, he rules over the local graveyards and all voodoo workings when it has to do with the dead, more importantly when it requires stealing bodies from the graveyard are to be work through him.

Today i called him, and he told me that we gotta meet again, to talk, botton line he stated that it is important for a magician not to work along to always have somebody with him, to help him resolve HIS problems, cuz appearently when it comes to voodoo, u can fix ppls problems but not yours, for that you will need somebody to fix yours, and when i say problems i mean ‘‘Spiritual problems’’.

I agreed, we will meet, and i will learn as much from him and the dominican Voodoo as i can, even tho’ it dont really resonates with me to work with the dead, although knowledge is never bad in my eyes.

Now questions, does the system that is used here to contact spirits has to do with the way aggresive, tricky, persuasive and mortal way demons approach to them?

Why a voodoo practitioner as experienced as this guy, does not see the Friendly, Master/Teacher, Companionship aproach that EA and most of the magicians here have with demons?

I am aware that not all demons or entities can be approached in this manner, some of them really are perverse and evil per say, but can always be commanded by the magicians will, is what i have learned here so far,
Wich is another point i forgot to mentioned, according to him the magician will always have to humble himself down to the entity no matter what entity it is, the magician will always have to show himself inferior than the demonic entity summoned.

I have learned from you guys, that the magician’s will is what determines the outcome of the relationship between him and the spirit, and that the magician being the operator is always ontop of the heararchy he is working with at the time of the sumonning. is that correct?

PD. Sorry for the long post, its just very exiting to me to get my hands into this, and just wanna share with somebody since i have nobody to talk to about this. :slight_smile:

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The first thing I thought in reading this is that the losing addresses etc is a classic way to lure someone in - intelligent people can seldom resist a mystery and overcoming obstacles, so whereas if all this had been laid out in a pushy way, you might have resisted, they made YOU do the seeking so you feel more involved already.

In other words this stuff of not knowing where this guy was seems a bit scammy to me. But I could be wrong!

Hard to say because I personally don’t know much about this system, but I can say with absolute conviction (like I have in gravity and the sun rising) that there are powerful, and dark, spirits who will NOT require these kinds of things of you ahead of time.

Think of it like a business arrangement, I say I’ll be your business mentor but I want 75% of post-tax profits and I’ll have my henchmen kill you if the business fails, someone else only wants 25% gross and doesn’t even HAVE any henchemen - who would it be wiser to go into business with?! :slight_smile:

Why a voodoo practitioner as experienced as this guy, does not see the Friendly, Master/Teacher, Companionship aproach that EA and most of the magicians here have with demons?

Maybe because voodoo is a religion, and our magick is a practice?

A person who becomes a Catholic through choice is accepting the default idea that they will burn eternally in hell for certain things, a Muslim is accepting they won’t be able to eat pork, drink, gamble, and especially if they’re female, they must dress modestly, etc… I mean religion seems to raise the stakes and ask for a lot more commitment (and IMO, swallowing bullshit designed to keep people in line) whereas magick is a mutally beneficial work between man and spirit.

I am aware that not all demons or entities can be approached in this manner, some of them really are perverse and evil per say, but can always be commanded by the magicians will, is what i have learned here so far, Wich is another point i forgot to mentioned, according to him the magician will always have to humble himself down to the entity no matter what entity it is, the magician will always have to show himself inferior than the demonic entity summoned.

That IS religion, not magick, although the religion may have magickal-seeming elements.

But it’s like the difference between you and me as free people having this conversation, comnpared to (for example) one of us being the monarch in some long ago era, and the other one a servant or even slave, who can’t speak freely for fear of the other one punishing them, even having them killed.

That’s a bad arrangement to my way of thinking, but people talk about how great it is because they’ve paid such a high price themselves, that to admit they could have got the same results more cheaply is painful and psychologically impossible.

I have learned from you guys, that the magician's will is what determines the outcome of the relationship between him and the spirit, and that the magician being the operator is always ontop of the heararchy he is working with at the time of the sumonning. is that correct?

In my experience yes, absolutely. Obviously we don’t have to be dicks about it, and spirits can do many things we can’t, but then for example the postal service is a mighty beast whose workings most of us don’t understand, it can do things we can’t (get a letter cross the country for a few pennies, overnight) but that doesn’t mean we have to WORSHIP it, slay our children before post boxes etc., we just fulfil our side of the contract by buying stamps and fixing them straight, then they do their bit of delivering our letters, everyone’s happy.

That’s my take on it - in short, these guys are asking for a commitment that it’s not NECESSARY to make, and that great power and familiarity with spirits can be had without any of this obligation and commitment.

Check your PMs in a minute, I’m going to send you something.

3 Likes

[quote=“Onyx, post:1, topic:6791”]Today i want to talk to you about an experience i had this week, in my search of somebody to channel a conversation between me and King Paimon in my country, Dominican Republic.

As i have mentioned before, i am very new to black magick, all i know are things i have read from Crowley’s books and EA’s videos, the rest of the magical knowledge i have its pure white magick which i learned in a Gnostic White lodge.[/quote]

if you are working basic latin american necromancy, read allan kardec’s the spiritist codification. many of the atr religions are syncretic, meaning they appear to be catholic. but their catholicism isn’t church catholic, they borrow their catholic face from the spiritists and kardecists. read kardec’s book to find out what their ‘religion’ is, and then you will have to initiate to find out what the african side of the religion teaches. i can’t tell you that info - no outsider can, and you probably won’t ever see it written in a book

mysteries means you have spirit tutors and familiars.

why can’t magicians ever fucking be straightforward? holy shit…

in other words you have to either develop your psi to call them on your own, or they want to initiate you into their way of calling.

YA RIGHT. magicians are slicksters, man. get used to that fact.

[quote=“Onyx, post:1, topic:6791”]Here comes the interesting part.

Nobody knew the guy, nobody even knew anybody that worked with the occult aroudn the area, so i sent somebody to ask the lady who gave me the directions to call me back so she can guide me on where to go, so while i was waitigin for her to call back i kept on asking around, and i stopped in an specific house to ask for the guy, a gentleman received me, and asked me what i wanted, i explained to him who i was looking for but he told me that he didnt know the guy, but that most likely i was refered to him because he is a full time black magician! (what are the odds?) i told him who refered me to , and that the lady who did told me they know eachother very well so he was gonna recognize her name, but this gentleman did not know the lady and found it weird cuz he dont know nobody around the area who deals with black magick, he was the only one, and wasnt something that everybody knew about him, just a few ppl knew of him and his practices, which is the reason why he took me in.[/quote]

ya, wierd shit like that happens all the time.

too much of a coincidence = NOT a coincidence at all

was he a palero?

ok so you’re getting closer. i think maybe he was santero and the haitian was a bokor. if they send you to an individual voduisant, probably a bokor. if they want you to see houngan or mambo they will send you to a peristyle most likely, or some type of society.

SMART. voduisant are not the most trustworthy of people in general, and i have been told that by HOUNGAN. so walk very carefully.

the bokor told him telepathically

he was receiving info. magicians are both very nosy and love to snoop on others. get used to that. atr are big on gossip, man. you need to know this.

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it sounds more and more to me that he was santero. if he made saint and he has saints on his altar, then in general he would not be the most likely to refer you to voduisant. santero and voduisant have different takes on the orisha bc santeria is westernized version of nigerian ifa, and haitian vodun is a westernized version of the religion from daxome which is completely different than ifa or santeria.

ok, i think what he meant is that you have both spirit familiars and deads/shades (ghede) following you. san elias is baron cimitiere, who is one of the guardians of the dead spirits of necromancy (the ghede) in haitian vodun.

NO. if you are from dominican republic, the main practice in your country is SANTERIA (LA REGLA DE OCHA) and the black magick practice in your country is one of the PALOS (LAS REGLAS DE CONGO). vodun is completely different. every island and region in latin america has their own orisha system. take the time to find out more about the one that is in YOUR part of the world because they are not the same and they have very little to do with western magick that erik teaches, a lot of the shit you find on this board is derived from francis barrett via aleister crowley and the golden dawn, which is completely different than atr.

ok the reason for that and the reason you were sent to a voduisant is because santero and palero do not work goetia in general. goetia is a completely different system than what they work. some houngan/mambo and bokor work goetia in haiti but they work it completely differently than the western ceremonial magicians do here. they work it a LOT harder than in the west and there is blood sacrifice involved, sometimes they sacrifice bulls, sometimes humans, sometimes other things. in brazil where they practice quimbanda they do something very similar, they work the grimoire verum there using the orisha and other spirits from islamic moorish and berber magic. again they work the spirits a LOT harder than the westerners work the verum. there are more herbs involved. i’m not sure if they use blood sacrifices but they work it a lot harder than westerners do. you have to be aware of these facts and know what you are getting yourself into.

yes he sounds haitian. they work lucifuge there.

ok, i have to tell you that in haiti when you work certain spirits they have what is known as a give man arrangement. a give man is someone who offers victims in exchange for spiritual favors. you have to offer souls for the spirits, or if they don’t take somebody else’s soul they will take yours or the soul of somebody you love and care about very much, they will torture them and take them and you will have to watch them die. in jamaica you will sometimes find obeah workers begging people for a quarter to kill somebody. because in obeah, you can’t just kill somebody for free, you have to have a reason. those obeah workers need a reason to take a life and offer to their spirits. in a way, they found themselves in a bind and have to find an excuse to offer some victim to the spirit so it doesn’t claim them. you have to be aware of the contracts you sign so you don’t find yourself in a bind.

NOT IN LATIN AMERICA. don’t let the west fool you. they work spirits a lot harder when you mix in the african systems. those spirits don’t fuck around so know what you are getting yourself into.

when he says entities he means what in the west are known as spirit familiars. i really wish magicians would call things what they are, when they go using all these vague terms all that does is confuse you so you don’t know what the fuck they are going on about. take your time to find out what you are getting yourself involved in, and if you feel like no this is not right for you, refuse to go into it because it’s easy to get in and next to impossible to get out of certain things. caveat emptor

that is what i mean when i say know what you are getting yourself into bc the spirits they work with do not fuck around. they work solomon’s key but they work it differently, they work it with necromancy and that makes it a lot more dangerous than it is taught here in the west.

[quote=“Onyx, post:1, topic:6791”]All pacts with theese entities last for 21 years.

I then explained to him, that the system i am familiar with does not work like that, i am not interested in working with any entity that will demand those things from me, and i will not offer my soul to any entity i explained.[/quote]

you were smart to not agree right away. educate yourself first. vodun is only one system, and you are being thrown into the deep end. you don’t need to do give man pacts to work goetia at all if that is not what you want.

what you need to understand is that he is going to operate from HIS paradigm. meaning, he is going to give you advice based on what he knows, but understand he only knows certain things and he believes certain things. if he is used to give man pacts then he will think solomon’s keys have to be worked with death pacts and necromancy. they don’t. there are plenty of magicians who work both shemhamphorash angel magick and goetia in solomon’s keys without doing any death magick. look around and you can find plenty of places to learn to conjure paimon without give man pacts. a good place to go would be ofs demonolatry. another thing you may want to do is study carefully the keys in 777 by crowley since that is what you have learned. another place to go is to study geoff gray-cobb’s titanic ritual from his book the miracle of new avatar power. if you know how to use 777 you can find the keys for conjuring paimon with the titanic rite, all without give man pacts.

Fun fact:

shit like that happens in magick ALL THE TIME. i still remember when i did my first evocation from the 6th & 7th books of moses. i was drawing the seal and the lines kept disappearing. i must have drawn that seal about 10 or 11 times and it took me almost 90 minutes to get it right. get used to things changing up on you like that. it happens all the time.

baron cimitiere rules over the ghede in the cemetery. the closest to him in goetia would be hades from greek mythology.

good advice. in santeria which is what they do where you are from that person who would work with you would be your godparent. they show you the ropes. you want to take your time and find a really good godparent or tata if you are in palo. a good godparent can teach you a lot a bad one can ruin you so caveat emptor.

understand that you don’t need to work with the dead in necromancy. you can build an altar to honor your ancestors and they will walk with you and look after you without you having to do all kinds of pacts and shit like that. don’t be so much in a hurry to learn the first thing offered to you. sometimes those things come with catches and by the time you find out what you really want to do, you are already obligated to follow through with something that is not meant for you. don’t fall victim to the bait & switch. hold out for what you REALLY want to do and make wise decisions because again, easy to get in hard to get out.

they do things differently in haitian vodun. your teacher there sounds to me like he might be bokor, which is more like a black magician in vodun. and it sounds to me like he works petro spirits which are hotheaded and more volatile than the rada spirits. you need a bit more education on vodun. most books on vodun aren’t fit to be used as toilet paper, but as one amazon commenter says, 'the online article Yoruba Medicine by Tariq Sawandi, material on sosyetedumarche.com, or into-thedarkness or Mama Lola by Karen Brown, African Vodoun by Susan Blier, Vodou: Visions and Voices of Haiti by Phyllis Galembo (GREAT BOOK BTW), The vodou portion of Heritage Of Power by Susheel Bibbs, even Vodou In Haiti by Alfred Metraux ‘…will also give a novice a clearer picture of the common beliefs and practices of Vodou/Voodoo.’ these books are written by practitioners and deep scholars. the info is basic but at least you are not flying blind. if you think you’ll learn vodun from a book i have some beachfront property in the sahara desert to sell you. but at least you will have somewhat of a clue as to what you are getting involved with if you take a little time to study. again caveat emptor

because westerns work spirits different than negroes and latinamericans. they work spirits a lot harder in the south. in jamaica they have a saying, puss and dog don’t have the same luck. what works fine for me might get you fucked up. because rules are different. again. caveat emptor. if it’s not for you, don’t be afraid to say no. find what works for YOU not for somebody else. petro vodou is a sharp sword.

don’t find out the hard way that your little magick circles and your little magickal knife won’t protect you from a real spirit manifestation. again if you think you’re going to tell a loi what to do, good luck with that. do you really think a ghede or loi is going to stop if you tell them ‘well the white man told me i can rule over you now do what i tell you?’ HA! GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!!! CAVEAT FUCKING EMPTOR!

my advice to you: FORGET all of this ‘well i was told’ shit if you want to learn any atr. let the atr tell you how THEY do things because whatever you bring into atr DOES NOT APPLY. african traditional and diasporic religions have their own way of doing things. learn their rules. whatever other rules you learned from crowley only apply to crowley. if you want to do it crowley’s way. go learn thelema. atr is different.

find out what atr does from an atr. keep the magick separated.

if you want to do it crowley’s way, learn thelema or join the golden dawn.

if you want to do it erik koetting’s way, buy one of his courses.

if you want to learn general catholic spirituality, read kardec’s books so you know what magickal religion is like in general for latin america. then maybe go to an espiritismo branch and find out from them.

if you want to make saint, find a santero. there are many in domrep.

if you want something like santeria but a little harder and to work nganga, find a palero. a lot of santero are also palero and they know of each other.

if you really want to do haitian vodun, forget what you read on here most of it has nothing to do with vodun. go find a houngan or mambo in a sosyete and ask questions.

if you want to learn from a bokor, good luck with that and caveat emptor.

don’t rush into atr. fools rush in where wise men… you know the rest

take your time and learn the ropes

word to the wise

finally

even if they do goetia in vodun, they do it VERY differently

what you expect is not going to be what you get

be sure you know what you want and what you are willing to give, bc vodun isn’t cheap and i don’t mean that in terms of money. you have to give something. interpret that however you want to

make sure you don’t give what you can’t take back or give more than you bargained for

good luck with everything

PD. Sorry for the long post, its just very exiting to me to get my hands into this, and just wanna share with somebody since i have nobody to talk to about this. :slight_smile:
[/quote]

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Thank you very much for your words man, after meditating on this subject i came to the same conclusion that you just named…

And yes, Santeria and Palo is actually a very known practice, it was my ignorance that led me to think that they were all one and the same system.

The systems that are used here and in haiti are the reason why people is scared of black magick, are the reason why i spent years in a white lodge, this systems have nothing to do with the reason i decided to walk the LHP, so i should stick to the reasons that brought me to this point, and it is basically EA’s system and approach.

Lots of good advices and lots of good materials that i feel confortable with have been given to me in the short amount of time i’ve been in this forum, and i really appreciate it.

NO!, i will not get into something that i don’t feel confortable with.

I decided to work individually, keep on with my own studies and grow stronger and more knowledgeable, in the systems i resonate with, and some advices and methods i was recently given, and then when i feel confortable enough i will study my countries system not to use them but to be familiar with them, in case i need to defend myself against it, because curses and those things are very common here, and i might be exposed to this if i continue on with my path.

You never know.

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ok, i think what he meant is that you have both spirit familiars and deads/shades (ghede) following you. san elias is baron cimitiere, who is one of the guardians of the dead spirits of necromancy (the ghede) in haitian vodun.[/quote]

So, what does it means that this entity walks with me?

you just have to cut through the bullshit and hype and exoticism of black magick in atr and see it for what it really is on a general level.

caribbean black magick is for the dregs of human psychology. investigating black magick in general is no different than going into the back alley of a nice building and rooting through their garbage bins. you get the refuse of productive activity, not the best of the best, but the shit nobody else wants because it’s too dirty or unuseful to be of any value.

technically, and on the most basic of basic levels, they are. a lot of atr (santeria, vodun, some forms of obeah, revival zion, quimbanda, etc) are built on orisha worship of the seven african powers. but that is where the similarity ends. after that they go in a million different directions. so for instance, eleggua, eshu, papa legba, exu, elegbara, are technically supposed to be pretty much the same because they all have a similar root name, but that’s like saying everybody in the phone book named john smith is related. not even fucking close! they are all DIFFERENT spirits with similar names.

no. i’m going to tell you exactly why people are scared of black magick. because it is a powerful psychology built with no morality. black magick is psychopathic psychology. the types of people drawn to it are usually either deluded rubes, or they are genuinely sick in the head. many black magicians by all rights should be locked up in prison according to mainstream social customs. you should basically have the personality of a human parasite or a hardened criminal to be a fit for black magick. i’m just being honest with you.

the backbone of erik’s system (whether he realizes it or not) is hypnotism and mesmerism. the rest is cobbled-together spiritual-sounding mumbo-jumbo he makes up or figures out as he goes along. he’s not the only one in the western occult community who operates along that principle, so it’s not a dis more of an observation.

probably the mildest and safest way for you to learn practical and workable lhp would be for you to study hypnotherapy from any good trainer (there are many) and then learn mesmerism from marco paret. from there, study either the books written by new thought authors such as napoleon hill and wallace wattles, or if you want to go lhp with it study objectivism as taught by ayn rand. apply what you learn to your finances and social life and watch things unfold for you over time. as peter gilmore pointed out in his writing for the objectivist church of satan, the ideal lhp practitioner is somebody who has achieved prominence and excellence in a chosen field of life and who lives a life they can be proud of. the aim of witchcraft is to build a life you enjoy here on earth and not wait for some god to rescue you from yourself, or get caught up in spiritual superstitions that only confuse you. at best all of that crap is a huge waste of your time and money. at worst it can get you involved with the wrong crowd who totally fuck up your life, or even end it entirely.

my advice to you fwiw is to skip all the bs and go learn hypnotism and mesmerism, and then apply them to your life using new thought or objectivist principles. then observe the actual result of living in that way on your finances and then your social and personal life. once you have made yourself financially independent and socially accepted, you can go in whatever direction you want and believe whatever you want. you can even get off the magickal boards entirely if you so choose, which btw is a good idea.

that’s how i see it knowing what i know, and for my advice, you can take it or leave it. you’ll probably leave it, but that’ll be your loss not mine or anyone else’s, so make your choice and follow through with it

it may mean that you either have familiar spirits (location spirits, dead souls, elementals, or whatever) that are waiting to serve you, or you have dead relatives watching over you and protecting you.

if you want to honor your ancestors, ask a santero about setting up an altar to your favourite ancestor, and then ask that person to introduce you to whatever mystere is following you if they are working in your best interest. you may get dreams or signs or someone may come up to you as an oracle and give you more information on whatever is following you so you know how to work with it.

if you want to do necromancy safely, they teach you how to do that in spiritism. read the books by kardec and maybe go find a spiritist house to learn how to contact the dead safely. or find a santero who can do the same work for you. i don’t get the feeling that working with bokor in vodou is the best move on your part. you’ll get more bang for your buck dealing with reputable santero. understand that santeria can be a sketchy world of its own and santero can be hotheads as well as gossipmongers, but in general you get a higher caliber of human being dealing with santero and palero than you do dealing with voduisant or obeah workers. caveat emptor

now, if you want to contact paimon to do demonic work and understand what you’re getting yourself into, author baal kadmon wrote a book called 72 demons of the name that has a simple method of conjuring goetic spirits. you can get it for $4.75usd on kindle or buy it for $12.99usd and it’ll tell you what you need to know without you going through give-man pacts and trying to learn extremely dark sorcery. kadmon’s method is nowhere near as powerful as what your bokor would be able to do for you, but it’s also nowhere near as dangerous. if you still want to conjure paimon without getting yourself in trouble, get kadmon’s book and see how that turns out for you.

it may mean that you either have familiar spirits (location spirits, dead souls, elementals, or whatever) that are waiting to serve you, or you have dead relatives watching over you and protecting you.[/quote]

And when he said that San elias especificly was following me, what would be your thoughts on it?

if you want to contact paimon, know that he is found in the constellation of gemini under the planet mercury, and he rules over the element of fire, rather than the gemini/mercury element of air. don’t ask me why, that’s just how he is designated in 777. if you want to conjure paimon, author baal kadmon wrote a book called 72 demons of the name that has a simple method of conjuring goetic spirits. you can get it for $4.75usd on kindle or buy it for $12.99usd and it’ll tell you what you need to know without you going through give man pacts. ymmv but if that’s what you want, go get it and have fun.
[/quote]

Thanks bro, i will look into that book today, i’m currently reading all i can about King Paimon, to determine whats gonna be my best course of action on evokating him, i will take my time though, i wont rush on it, there are a few things i wanna work with first or small goals i set to myself before getting to him.

long story short, if you were told san elias is following you, baron cemetary is inviting you to serve.

long version: you’re being invited into 21 divisions by the loi baron cemetery through its syncretic catholic mask of saint elijah. i take it to mean you’ll pose as a catholic and work with baron and the ghede (deads). you will be a catholic layman or priest recommending for san elias in public, and a horse for baron cemetery in private. in divisions they call walking with the loi the mysteries (los mysterios) or the laws (los lwases), and that i think is what they are trying to tell you you will do, but you have to verify it with a santero or caballo who knows the deal and can see things beyond the general.

the person who told you to work with a caballo was giving you wise advice. i take that to mean that baron cemetery wants to mount (possess) you at some point, to channel messages or to give you powers.

NOBODY makes up their mind to go into any atr. they only get in if the spirits give them permission and invite them in. so you have been chosen and that is a great honor.

ask a santero or reputable caballo for more information on getting into your orisha worship properly and safely. if you have been chosen, the spirits will guide you to spirit workers, but in general, trust your instinct, and be careful to pick only reputable mentors to teach you. even if the spirit wants you in, a bad mentor can fuck you up, remember that so walk carefully.

that’s pretty much all i can tell you and you have to verify that it’s the case or not bc i do not know your situation.

again that is a good idea. know what you are getting yourself into, and when it comes to demonolatry, don’t start anything you can’t or won’t finish. my personal belief though after having thought about it a bit, is if you are being called into 21 divisions and can find a good reputable caballo to initiate you, don’t waste your time on goetia. you’ll get far better results in atr if you follow good instruction than any type of self-taught diy goetia.

but do what you want and good luck

I don’t want to start an off-topic stream of debate here but I just want to say I completely and comprehensively disagree with this, and that’s based on the premise that “black” magick - magick which obeys no external morality, only being limited by what the operator can and cannot acheive - is akin to the power of the gods themselves, so it bears no more relationship to conventional social norms than the ways of a spider or a wolf.

It seems obvious to me that “white” magicians and religionists are the sick ones, who need everyone to agree with them so their egos don’t feel threatened and so they don’t have to think too hard, since all their answers and morals are written out in a book.

And what lovely books! Kill, burn, oppress women and gays, keep slaves…

Anyway like I said don’t mean to drag your thread OT, Onyx, but remember people here are only speaking from their own opinion, and I advise you investigate for yourself, and keep a critical mindset on.

As you were! :wink:

…and here we are, neck-deep in the quicksand pit of talking about atr!

armchair philosophy in magick is always a bad thing but in atr it is worse than useless. since i haven’t experienced much atr beyond a ritual i did to a loi, i’m not qualified to say much about it or form opinions on it, so i’m going to leave it at that.

my personal judgment of caribbean black magick morality is based on things i have seen and heard growing up. my family is from a part of jamaica with a lot of obeah workers and my grandmother was active in the pocomania church, so i’ve seen some things here and there and let’s just say, power or no power. the ethics and morality get a little bit loose when you deal with african snake worship.

i will leave it up to an atr to explain more for you if they feel like it. hint: they probably won’t feel like it.

all i will say is, the mentalities in atr are just different than they are in western magick, and western reasonings do not apply to atr in any way. the atr’s have their own rules.

i have to leave it at that and change the topic.

[quote=“Lady Eva, post:11, topic:6791”]It seems obvious to me that “white” magicians and religionists are the sick ones, who need everyone to agree with them so their egos don’t feel threatened and so they don’t have to think too hard, since all their answers and morals are written out in a book.

And what lovely books! Kill, burn, oppress women and gays, keep slaves…

Anyway like I said don’t mean to drag your thread OT, Onyx, but remember people here are only speaking from their own opinion, and I advise you investigate for yourself, and keep a critical mindset on.

As you were! ;)[/quote]

atr’s are neither pronomian nor antinomian; they are syncretic.

atr’s syncretism is completely out of relation to any western -nomian idea (either pro- or anti-), so agreeing or disagreeing with it is neither here nor there.

i really don’t know what to say to you other than atr’s are just DIFFERENT. and trying to understand atr with a western mind is a fool’s game.

other than that i’m going to have to swerve the whole conversation, sorry.

maybe someone who is initiated can take up where i left off if they want.

again hint: they probably won’t

I was addressing what you were saying about black magick as practiced by people on here, and also, E.A.'s work - not ATRs. But that’s too off-topic and anyway I’m sure your reasons for your beliefs are as valid to you as mine are to me… so whatever. :slight_smile:

i have to make it clear i differentiate between left hand path magick and black magick.

for me, lhp is existentialist and antinomian. lhp relies on manipulation of the mind and the environment, and social relationships for personal gain.

black magick to me relies on predatory and social darwinist means to raise power for magickal ends and also for personal power, especially afro-caribbean black magick, which to be quite blunt about it can and does often descend into straight up ritual harrassment as well as ritual hunting and killing.

an example of what i consider to be lhp magick would be a wall street trader. they are out for money, point blank period. there may or may not be morality in being that way but it is pure in its own fashion. whatever means they have to take to bring the dollahs in, they will do without delay. that to me is about as lhp as it gets - it lives in ayn rand’s objectivism which is NOT christian AT ALL.

on the other hand, black magick would be more like a professional hitman or soldier for hire doing cullings kidnapping and torture, joining private military groups for counterintelligence, assassinations, government or business destabilizations, ransom kidnappings, whatever have you. but also amateur vigilantes doing with gangstalking, reputation destruction, spreading misinfo, organizing social disruptions such as mass shootings, cult indoctrination, hate rallies, etc.

to me, lhp and black magick sometimes intersect, but in the end it’s the black magicians who do the dirty work while lhp often wash their hands of it and don’t think about it too much. black magick is a more zero-sum way of developing personal power than lhp even though a lot of people seem to think they are the same, to me they are not the same thing, only similar but different by degree.

keep in mind blood sacrifice is a HUGE part of atr. in many cases especially when doing petro type work, something (read: somebody) gotta die for the magick to happen. some rogue mages in the caribbean take it a bit further and live on the fringes of society, picking off lives when they need a quick boost of power for whatever reason. magickally, they can be unstoppable. morally they can and often do things that are very questionable.

put another way, i would say lhp on the hard end would be like a samurai or ronin, with strict rules that can be severe but there are still rules. black magick is more like a ninja who does all the stuff the samurai think is too grisly and filthy to put their hands on, but when it needs to be done somebody has to do it.

when you think about that you realize the stakes are a little bit higher in atr black magick than western philosophy allows for

What is ATR?..

African Traditional Religions - another term is ADR, African Diaspora Religions, that covers stuff exported around the world. The “R” is the big issue there IMO. :slight_smile:

let’s just stay i stand corrected in a major way about atr and adr. somebody transmitted quite a bit to me and let’s just say i learned a LOT. still basic. but now i understand certain things a lot better.

have to retract some things i said about adr. i had a few things explained to me that make perfect sense.

onyx, if you are being called into 21 divisions by san elias, contact a good caballo. still make sure they are legit because yes, there are still a lot of charlatans in adr. it’s just good common sense to make sure that your caballo is someone who is not antisocial within the divisions community. that goes beyond magick, you want to make sure that whoever is teaching you is not some type of wierdo or creep. for some strange reason, magick seems to attract people who are either, or both. you want to swerve that.

if necromancy seems to be too intense to you because of the closeness to death, understand that the veil between the living and the dead has to be thin if you want to work magick with san elias. you have to accept that death is an important part of life, and that communicating with those who have passed on is very important in african magick. ask your caballo about doing ancestor veneration with the haitian or dahomeyan vodu methods, and also ask them about contacting spirits via european espiritismo. between veneration and espiritism, you have both african and european ways of contacting the ghede (dead and familiars), which you’ll probably do through baron cemetery. your caballo will explain more to you when you contact them.

i was being prejudiced. division is legit, it’s not some cult or scam. but make sure your bokor is reasonable, and go forward using your common sense.

This is something i will take my time to meditate on, before i take a step…
I need to work in myself, in all senses, i need to develope the magician’s will and the magician’s intuition, before i step into something as serious as this…

I am starting to trust myself more, i had realize that everytime a problem comes up, i give myself the way out, everytime i ask myself something i answer back, and that answer is wiser than what i have thought, because not trusting this has led me to stagnation, and trusting it is leading me to another level i can’t see yet, but i can feel it.

I know, i have to answer this call eventually (And yeah, i agree with you in the sense that i’ve been called into these mysteries), but i am not ready just yet, i am not strong enough, i have a lot of work ahead of me, and this is just the begining.

Because even though, the idea of working with the dead does not resonates with me just yet, i have to admit, that my first concious Magickal work was indeed with the dead, and the links can be tied up to this.

It is a challenge i will take on, but i will get prepared before stepping in.

BTW, it’s interesting the way your thoughts shifted on this topic, i’d like to hear more about what was it that you came to receive as information in regard of the 21 divisions.

see, that is why i kept recommending you visit santero. the babalawo explain trance possession in a detailed way. the vodun people can be very secretive with information sometimes and not tell you what you need to know. that you would be invited into 21 divisions but not have horsing explained to you, well i don’t understand that because horsing your loi is so fundamental to your initiation i don’t think you should be in the dark about it.

your coronation prepares you for a spiritual life in your adr as well as being a benefit to the community in 21 divisions. your loi ‘rides’ you by entering you in a possession ritual and you channel messages from your loi to your bokor. one of those messages can be your loi telling you how to fix your life to be more in tune with nature. or they can relay messages with instruction for others in the community. after your trance possession is done, you and others in divisions follow the loi’s advice and your life moves in certain ways.

you have to ask your bokor for more information. afaic they should volunteer that information to you since you were invited in by baron, but whatevaman.

these types of things are basic psychological profiles. in hypnotism it has been said that the three cardinal traits are self-confidence, skill, and beneficience. to be self-confident you have to know who you are and who you are not. one way to figure yourself out is to visit an astrologer and have a comprehensive birth chart drawn up, with progressions that explain how you have lived your life. your elemental, planetary, and solar constellation/lunar mansion makeup tell you your personality traits. the degrees in your aspects tell you your strengths and weaknesses. your planets’ house and sign positions give detailed information on the different areas of your life and destiny. knowing all of this, you can then make better decisions to align your life with nature, and when you are in tune with your destiny, confidence comes to you naturally because your life now has direction.

also, certain things in your birth chart can show you your personality type for just about any area of your life, as well as your strengths and weaknesses to work on for self-improvement. working on these things will build your confidence up as you fix them to your liking.

if you want more info on that, find an astrologer who does detailed birth charts or ask a diviner on the island to recommend a good astrologer who can draw your birth chart up for you. you will need your mother’s maiden name, your date and exact time of birth, and the city or town you were born in to get a good chart reading.

if you wait til you’re ready you’ll wait forever. you either want to be a magician or you don’t. and even if you do, you either want to accept a life in vodun or you don’t. if you don’t, say no. if you do, think it over and plan but don’t delay.

you can’t work magick seriously if you don’t work with the dead. we are spirits in the material world, not the other way around.

It is a challenge i will take on, but i will get prepared before stepping in.

sometimes it happens. i was wrong about a few things and misguided about others, but i don’t carry rancor toward the atr or adr, so i guess i was corrected in the spirit of giving facts and setting things straight. i’m thinking it’s because maybe i do know just enough about atr and adr to be dangerous. in the land of the blind, one bad eye can seem like insight but to one who has 20/20 vision they see things differently. i don’t think i know anywhere near enough to hang with insiders, but i do know a few terms and understand a few delineations so i guess i know just enough that if i rant on about it to outsiders, i can lead people even further astray and maybe drive away some outsiders who the spirits and the community want in. i figure the insiders are going saying hey, whoa there mister, don’t put that on us, we’re not like that so get your p’s and q’s lined up a bit more, and that guy is ok with us so don’t put your feelings into it. so i self-corrected and backtracked a bit and that’s that for that.

My opinion, based on personal experience, is that you don’t HAVE TO do anything - the ATR/ADRs are religions, they place the wants and desires of spirits first.

A magician places his (or her) own will first, and in so doing, violates and commits heresy against ALL religions.

The core shamanism stuff I learned is a heavily spirit-led paradigm, and it’s fine, a useful adaptable tool and also very powerful - but it does sometimes get people drawn into currents and traditions that hold them back.

I’m going to risk being offensive and say the ADR/ATR stuff holds a lot of good, intelligent, otherwise sound people BACK - houngans and mambos seem in a perpetual state of dissing each other, teacher turns on student and vice versa, and at NO point in these Religions, is the human uppermost.

So, just because a spirit whistles, you don’t need to wag your tail and go running.

They don’t OWN you.

No-one (and no thing) does, unless you let them.