"My" demons might not be the same as "your" demons (GateKeepers)? Discussion?

Agreed.

My guess is that some spirits are posing as others (maybe the spirits’ familiars) or maybe depending on the person they may adjust their behavior accordingly? I’m not trying to suggest that it is subjective, but it’s kind of like how humans may act differently based on their situation, if that makes sense?

I find this interesting and I’m definitely curious about other people’s opinions.

For a while I found myself doing things the BALG way, so too peak, simply because that’s all I knew. This community has literally been pivotal in my journey as a black magician.

But as I’ve gone deeper, my own relationships with various demons, especially Lucifer, has led me to very different places.

Each of our paths is a progressive unfolding. Every time I think I’ve finally grasped it all, another level is unveiled and a new infusion of knowledge comes crashing down.

I don’t see demons as distinct beings, more as streams of consciousness. As such they have many different aspects. The way Lucifer works with me might be different from how he works with someone else.

But also as you said, sometimes someone is just wrong. Their mind has misinterpreted what the spirit has said.

Personally I’ve been drifting away from the nine gatekeepers model as it simply doesn’t fit for me in the path that has been unfolding so far. It seems a bit random and illogical. I like the basic idea for various reasons but I think it also leaves a lot to be desired.

At the end of the day you can only keep what fits and discard what doesn’t. It’s not my place to question the information someone else purports to receive.

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No the illuminutties ‘invited’ him (not very gracefully) to be an honorary high level whatsit and he turned them down. He’s already above that type of hierarchical system.

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I’m not really seeing where there’s the huge divergence you describe, far from not being ‘anything remotely close’ - I see some cherry picking about the masks and aspects you work with that are more different than what others have in general, but I think that’s normal.

You are approaching these entities in the subtle level, using your own system as the lens to view them, the differences in the calibration of your instrument as the practitioner will make huge differences in not just what you are able to view and how you view it, but your intention and their response to you.

I worked with Lucifuge Rofocale for a bit as well. A gentleman, very business oriented and picky. A no-nonsense type. He never mentioned anything about being a GateKeeper or anything that’s BALG-like in nature (philanthropy, radical subjectivism, relativism, ascent, and so on).

I concur, and I came to Lucifuge via BALG.
But my interest in talking to him is usually goal-oriented and specific, and nothing to do with that list of values, except ascent, which wasn’t a topic of discussion either.

My friends worked with some of the other spirits which share the names with the GateKeepers and they reported the same thing. We simply don’t get the same things you people do.

This seems to imply that ‘you people’ - who I assume are posters on BALG - are some sort of unified coven that all get and agree on the same thing, and this is not the case.

If you disagree with EA that’s fine, so do some of the posters here. If you have specific questions about certain posters’ gnosis I think you’d do better to just take it up with them individually.

No-one on BALG speaks for all on BALG, and that tends to be taken issue with if someone tries, or they are politely ignored. We are not a hive mind, we are people from all over, and all backgrounds like you. You are not the first to post their gnosis and ask why it’s different, and you won’t be the last.

Most people are rather less cup-full and assumptive about it though. I think you would do well to suspend the judgement for a little while and try to read more in the posts than what you want to hear.

A lot of planetary attributions and character traits that we experience from our spirits are different from what you people report. That, and spiritual properties. For example, Lilith is not just a sexual & emotional being, that’s maybe 5% of the things she represents and does.

Again, everybody is different, so this is another sweeping statement that makes no sense.
Many go by what they’ve read in published books - which differ sometimes - personally I don’t use this idea of lists of correspondences in my work at all.

I think applying ‘planets’ which are bodies that are only relevant to this solar system to a celestial is nonsensical, and about as silly as applying ‘colours’, which are merely very tiny sections of the EM spectrum that can interact physically with the human retina. These are symbolism, that allow limited humans to access bits of their subconscious to get ahold of ideas, and not really a part of the entity itself. That doesn’t mean I go round telling people that find these useful they’re wrong - they find them useful so they’re clearly not. I don’t, so I don’t use them. That’s magik for you - you make your own.

What I had found is that demons are not a unified collective working toward the same goal. They all have their own agendas and preferences. They’re not a hive-mind. After all, they are spirits and pagan deities from various different pantheons, so it makes sense. There is rivalry among some of them, and they do fight each other over political power if it’s necessary. Some of them are mercenary-like in nature, some of them are fiercely loyal and noble, and others are just downright disgusting in character.

I don’t think anyone said they were a “hive mind”? They way I see this, is it’s a bit like mages coming together for group workings - they are individuals with personalities. I think they do know each other personally. There’s some things they sometimes work together on, but it’s specific not general.

However, it’s not my gnosis that they are as petty as humans and that all human activity can be projected onto them. You have to be careful not to over-anthropomorphise entities that are very much not human.

Now my question is how come we’re getting different things? Are we actually working with different beings that just happen to share the same name? You know, like people share the same names but obviously aren’t the same person.

Masks. Which aren’t a black magik obscurity they’re a psychological tool.
Complex beings have different facets of personality and behaviour that they choose to display under different situations. You see the same thing even among humans so I’m not sure why this is confusing.
For example, my professional persona at work is very much not the persona I show to my family and normie friends, is not the persona I show to my local kink community, is not the person I am here.

On a final note, I would like to rule out a few arguments:

You’re actually making arguments in this section, btw, not ruling any out, but I know what you mean :slight_smile:
Unfortunately you seem to be positing counterargument to arguments nobody has made.
If you could link or cite people making these arguments it would help, otherwise you’re just generalising and putting words in people’s mouths.

“It’s all subjective” - no, because there is consistency among unrelated practitioners and grimoires and objective truth does exist.

I don’t think anyone said it’s ALL subjective, did they?
but subjectivity is very much present, as mentioned above, and doesn’t mean we as humans are able or allowed to see it. Hence masks, as viewed through the lens of the human system. And every human is very different. Also they don’t have fixed physical bodies, so when they assume appearances, of which emotion and mental imagery is a part, that’s really up to them as a tool to use, and what they think that tool should look like for the work in hand.

“it’s all expectation” - no, because I have found that spirits quite freely defy my expectations, they’re not altered by them. Same goes for EA. His whole gatekeeper experience and revelation was contrary to what he expected, unless he lied.

Not ALL, again, nobody says that.
Yet expectation influences perception, and importantly also influence intention, does it not? - and these two together completely change what energy the practitioner puts into it, what he gets back and hence what he experiences.

So, what’s the deal here, gang? Different spirits with same names? I don’t believe it’s “different aspects” since a lot of times it’s contradictory information and traits.

The deal, I believe, is you have made a lot of assumption and suppositions about individuals posts and applied them to a whole that does not exist, and instead of wondering why you’re confused, leaped to the conclusion that the whole eclectic group of very different people working from very different viewpoints are all wrong, and can’t possibly be talking to the same entities you are. I think this is naieve, but I only speak for myself.

Don’t forget the advanced people don’t usually do into that much detail, and get even more differences and unique details that become personal to the relationship.

In other words, nobody cares if your personal experience is different, so why do you? Knock yourself out.

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The major fault I find with this statement is that for example you think Your Version of Satan is more valid than someone elses. In doing this, its easy to consider anything an impostor spirit. Its kind of like having the judgement system of where if someone doesn’t agree with you they must be a J***** (insert any derogatory name really). Other than that, nothing wrong with Hyperfocusing on your own ideal evocation.

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^ I would echo everything in that reply to be honest.

You wrote:

I say:

What I had found is that BALG forum is not a unified collective working toward the same goal. They all have their own agendas and preferences. They’re not a hive-mind. After all, they are magicians and students from various different backgrounds, so it makes sense.

You have no idea what each of the many different and diverse members on here is getting. I doubt whether many people on here consider ourselves E.A.'s “followers” either, I mean that is kind of cringe.

If you have issues with his findings and his pathworking, talking about it to people on here like we’re a cult won’t serve much of a useful purpose for anyone. :man_shrugging:

Another thing to consider is that people will perceive the same human being differently, in different roles - lover, employer, patient, employee, passing acquaintance, random aggressor, kindly helper. Most people have been in all these roles.

Lilith, for example, is professional and political with me, but I do not arrogantly assume that is her “true” self or the only thing she does that matters. Why should nigh-on immortal beings, who can be conscious in multiple locations at once, be any less complex than any ordinary human being?

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I think E.A. is more dealing with ‘corporate’ while most other practitioners that aren’t as much into the addition of marketing their stuff likely end up dealing more with the private sides of these beings or the front end set ups if that analogy makes any sense. Also E.A. is notorious for his marketing to say the least so I have no doubt much of what he discovers is translated in a way to get maximum attention and hype in a similar way that you might explain medieval ceremonial magick with more modern terminology to get the same meanings across if it was easier for the majority to understand.

Take DNA manipulation for instance. He might explain it in terms of genetics but he really receives in terms perhaps more akin to lycanthropy and possession and other more classical forms of changing the structures of the astral matrix but those would probably be very niche terms that don’t quite have the ring of the translated versions.

There is also the fact these beings are not whole beings but simply universal forces and qualities that have taken on personifications in response to humanity and other beings working with them and while a large part is an independent entity made from the long collection of thoughts and energies given to them and their origins from the universal source they also tend to reflect in many ways the individual summoning them unless they have an overriding reason to not just go with that flow. Many over time have evolved past their initial stages true but they also still rely on whole beings to supply them with power outside of their domains through offerings and energy sacrifices so they tend to do their own marketing where it is worthwhile.

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Yeah, it is a good point that the message they’re giving him would be wasted on most of the rest of us, who don’t have a high-profile public presence like he has. Another reason not to go bobbins about us seeing different sides of them. :slight_smile:

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I honestly believe no one, and I mean no one, holds the one and only universal truth, instead we all hold just fragments. My fragment and your fragment are only different pieces of the same puzzle.

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From what I understand, the spirits work with each magician based on what is necessary for that particular magician’s Ascension.

EA has stated before that the stuff he has published about his work with the Gatekeepers is only a very small amount of what he has received. There is plenty he has been given that has to do only with his personal spiritual progression, and that is not for public dissemination.

While there are some commonalities in the experiences of different magicians, the spirits tend to express only what is necessary for the individual. For example, I’ve been reading the Belial Compendium, and the experience that EA had with him come across as very different from what is described by Kurtis Jospeh, but Belial gave each of them what was needed, and both of their experiences of him differ from my own.

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Demons position different people in different places giving each person different information. Just like a person may talk different to their freind than they would to a manager at a job interview, Demons such as Belial can act differently with different people. Each person may need a different set of directions because their goals are different. Some people I would offer coffee to, some people I would not offer coffee to. I am same person giving completely different answers depending if it is some 1 I like or not. From working with Belial, I get the impression Belial likes coffee, to me coffee is like a liquid version of black flame.

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@Prophet That’s possible too. Although, from what I’ve noticed, the emissaries and what not do not impersonate their superior. They’ll say something along the lines of, “X (superior) is busy, so I’ll take care of it.” Impersonation seems to be a form of disrespect to many of them.

@Melektoth I really can’t say I share the same view. I’ll write my take on the whole aspects thing (again) in this same comment so I don’t have to type the same thing over and over again.

@Meowlix With all due respect, why do you find that improbable? People can and are often wrong. Someone could be deluded thinking they work with Satan, when another person could very well be working with the real deal. Why must everyone be right and have a valid path and position? It doesn’t work like that in the physical world, so why must it work in the astral?

@anon47923162 I really don’t share the view that spirits are forces and not actual beings, I’m afraid.

@DarkestKnight Ah, it could be possible that he publishes over-sensationalized information which could be far from the truth that he’s keeping for himself. Now here’s the issue that I have with the whole ‘same being just different aspect’ sort of thing.

Suppose someone who is 'truthful like Astaroth likes both of us. A lot. Yet we used completely different methods of evoking as well as completely different sigils (from unrelated traditions, like for example I used a G.V. sigil and you used a Dukante sigil). Then we decide to ask Astaroth the exact same question, and we receive answers that are contradictory. Not just different, but in actual opposition to each other.

It does not make sense to say “it’s just a different mask” because there’s absolutely no reason for “the mask” to be limited to a set of answers. Why should a mask be programmed to give a specific type of answers? Either one of us was deceived by Astaroth, or our minds perverted the message, or we are dealing with two different spirits entirely. Both answers cannot be true as they are in opposition to each other. You could say “well you’re a different person to different people.” True, but if the two people are very similar in some regards (like both are magicians) there’s no reason for me to bullshit one person and tell truthful things to another, unless I dislike/distrust the person I’m bullshitting. But, again, the spirit likes us both, so this can’t be it, right?

Again, why should we humans be able to have the same names without being the same person, but spirits cannot have this luxury? Why can’t many different spirits share the same name, just like many people can share the name “John” or “Mark” or “Larry?”

@Nero666 the answer I gave above ^ can also be applied to to your post. Check it out and let me know what you think.

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You can claim that you’re all so different from each other all you want. Fact of the matter is, many people here share the same paradigm which is:

Intent trumps mechanics, anthropocentrism, relativism (therefore, every spiritual experience is valid and legitimate, there are no wrong answers), tools are just a psychological prop yet spirits are somehow real beings(?), the well known demons are there to help us ascend, our goal is ascent, so on and so forth…

If you think this is a strawman, just go back and review many of the answers here that are given to questions such as “Does it matter if I use this sigil over another; do I have to do this in the right planetary hour; are the circle and triangle important?”

I know Westerners like to prattle on about their identity and individuality. How they’re oh so special. But, really, most of us have more things in common with each other than differences.

I’d like to keep this thread clean from this bizarre identity / individuality discussion which wasn’t even the main topic. All I did was differentiate adherents to my paradigm from adherents to your paradigm. Paradigm here is being used colloquially and in a much broader sense.

Cool?

Alright, I would like to hear your thoughts on what I wrote in the comment above this one about different aspects. Thanks.

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Have you ever tried to type a Japanese sentence using an American keyboard and no romanji transliteration programs? You can’t, because we dont have the correct input.

This is why we read books and research/entertain all possibilities. That way all the possibilities are in our mind and our unconcious mind can properly transliterate the message to your concious mind.

Otherwise our brain fills in the blanks like autocorrect and we get incorrect information

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No, sorry :smiley: because it lies at the heart of what you are talking about here:

Let’s see the list:

Intent trumps mechanics

This assumes one “group” has entirely the correct mechanics, already in place, whereas another has entirely the wrong mechanics.

I dispute this, I covered it before with this browser analogy:

If you call on spirits under a specific mask, in this case presumably Joy Of Satan, you’ll probably see them show up looking blond, the same as the Imperial Arts author sees demons looking ugly and weird, because he’s a grimoire trad. guy.

I don’t place expectations on them, and they take all kinds of forms for me, including totally non-anthropomorphic.

Same with angels - you go to them assuming they’re these bad guy hustlers, you’re going to limit what you get.

You know how, to get online and view a website, you need a program called a browser?

You can set browsers to make all the text on sites come out a specific way, you can block javascript (which gives a lot of the interactive functionality & other aspects on a web page, and blocking it can totally cripple the way some sites display) - and the belief you take to any magickal interaction seems to be like that.

It seems to affect what kind of manifestation you get, including limiting some of the ways the spirit will act, or what it will say to you.

Note that even with 25+ years experience in magick, I’m still only saying “seems to be” because I wouldn’t presume to know it all.

So, belief isn’t a passive thing, in magick - it can affect what you get delivered to you!

If we look at human history and specifically the history of “demons” i.e., beings named in the grimoires, we find some will reveal themselves (to some of us) to be ancient gods or goddesses (Bael, Buné come to mind) while others appear to have no prior known form that was degraded and stereotyped into demonic (Sitri maybe is an example of this, and Belial).

Furthermore, you can observe the differences this shift in belief makes when evoking by comparing the works of a grimoire-traditionalist such as Imperial Arts, and his experience with Buné, to my own experience where I approached her free of expectations and over time she revealed she was also the spirit behind the goddess Wadjet, and that she is very loving and will assist with making contact with the deceased (like you, I largely believe spirits are discrete personalities, not forces, although with Lucifer/Satan that line may somewhat blur, as with a person’s experiences when dealing with “big-G God” and some angels).

Another example is Imperial Arts’ perception of Belial contrasted with that of Aaron Donaghue, and I covered that in more detail here.

Finally, you can take that from the spirit world right into this topic – you were on this forum for a while, no issues, you decided to tear apart one member’s experience because you did not think highly of her, in a prolonged and intentionally hurtful manner, so, you got banned.

I permitted you to try again, and now, you come on this forum and start telling us we are, in fact, a hive-mind and guess what – people seem to be “uniting” against you.

Even though in this topic alone, some of us replying have been seriously and significantly at odds over serious issues that remain a point of difference. But to you, we seem like a unified group with shared thinking.

You are seeing what you want to see right here, right now, with US – and you tell me that can never happen with a spirit, which probably has a far more complex personality than any human?

Anyway, back to the list:

anthropocentrism,

Pointless trendy –ism, short of spending a long lifetime experiencing being another type of life-form, every living thing appears to experience itself as the centre of its own universe, though most also realise other beings feel the same way.

relativism (therefore, every spiritual experience is valid and legitimate, there are no wrong answers),

Wrong: what matters are RESULTS, no-one on here who posts a failed working gets pats on the head (nor asks for them) just for doing things in some approved manner. Results are all that counts, and all most of us care about, absent any personal choice to love or serve a philosophy, or entity/ies of our choice.

To re-quote myself, enlightenments and big revelations about “the nature of truth/life/reality” (etc) are the monopoly money of magick: feels good in the hand, in the moment, but they do not pourchase any changes in the real world.

Results - new job, better car, more money - are proof that regardless of how and what you are doing, it is working.

And to do the opposite, to automatically discard someone’s spiritual experience as INvalid and ILlegitimate, is how dogma gets started, and dogma can be every bit as wrong as someone’s “delusional” experience – with the dangerous difference that dogma then gets enforced upon others who are tutored and shamed into following it.

So for that reason, on here, we leave the gateway open, because when it comes to damage done, dogma can roll on for centuries, even millennia (just look at the practice of Type 3 female circumcision, that kills women and babies for no real purpose) whereas one person’s mistake will have less of an impact.

On this forum peer-testing, without force or the need to sit in judgement on each post, is key – if someone is significantly out of alignment with the experiences of many others, they will observe this and can investigate why, and whether they wish to do anything about it.

This is significantly better than any similar alternative.

tools are just a psychological prop yet spirits are somehow real beings(?),

(I will ignore the 2nd part since I think we’re on the same page as to spirits being “real,” at least on this side of the Divine Paradox where we talk using ordinary terms.)

One of E.A.'s recent newsletters described most tools as training wheels/props, but stated that some objects have innate power of their own. I don’t have the newsletter handy to link.

This is a view I share, and from what I see, most people go through a stage of wanting all the tools, then none of the tools (when finding they are non-differentiated from the All) and then, finally, entering into the “some tools do something better than my mind can, others are less important.”

This fits perfectly with the following widely-accepted views: 1. Objects and non-human beings can have a real spirit of their own and 2. That spirit sometimes aids us in our magick, for various reasons of its own.

So, again, to class all tools as one interchangeable group is an error of thinking that leads to erroneous conclusions – the nature and functions of an ancient crystal that formed over tens of millions of years will be different to a Tarot deck that’s mass-produced, and rolled out via a network of minimum wage hands, to reach someone browsing in the local new age shop.

Tarot cards can be dispensed with and the images, once “uploaded” into a mind training in divination, used instead, because the image, not the plastic-coated card, is where the power or “real spirit” of the deck resides. That said, some will still find the physical deck most useful, because it leaves more mental runtime free, and some physical decks will also become imbued with a spiritual power of their own.

This is textbook animism, nothing contentious or relativist.

the well known demons are there to help us ascend,

The general view seems to be that something got off track, either before recorded history (known as “Atlantis” etc., though the writings on that don’t sit well with many of us, either) - or, and this fits as well with the former, that things started to go wrong with the genesis of the monotheistic faiths that all share a theme of shunning contact with spirits, and prohibiting divination and the use of magick to change reality.

Many demons (including the “former god with own cult” and the “just kind of appeared along the line in grimoires” guys) are not happy about this, and have their own agenda to work and see things change.

The idea all demons are just Santa Claus with horns, here to see us fulfil selfish desires away from the older forms of social and spirituality morality, is not often found on here, or, not often held for long once someone begins to truly communicate with spirits, understand that magick is REAL, and understand the implications of magickal awakening becoming a global phenomena.

our goal is ascent, so on and so forth…

If you can find 2 people on here who have the exact same definition of what that is, I would be astonished – I thought it was an umbrella term for each individual’s reaching a stage (or, series of stages) whereby their magickal abilities allow them to significantly improve their world to their own liking.

Political differences alone, forged from different life experiences, geographical location, preferred worldview and currently preferred outcome for the wider world rule out that “ascent” being a single vision held by all of us, in the exact same way.

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I’m just going to ignore all the blathering about me thinking you’re a hive-mind or whatever. Your bruised pride is of no interest to me. And nowhere have I said that you are uniting against me, but have fun with your projections and bollocks.

As for the rest of the texts, I’ll look into it.

But, I ask you, if you use completely different methods - how do you know you are dealing with a mask of another being and not a completely different being altogether? The astral signature method is extremely flawed.

Lastly, I got what I came for. Feel free to ban me again, I suppose? And, before your overactive imagination kicks in, this does not mean that I think you’re a fascistic mod. I’m just saying you can ban me with the reason “User left the forum.” I think it would for the best. I really can’t play nice.

Will agree with you on everything but this part. Nature of spirits/Gods matter, Truth matters. SPecially in Advanced Occult. In a bit advanced level hierarchy of beings, how do they correspends to Us and how they relate to each other is EVERYTHING.

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Sad to hear that. Well, what can be done?

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Huh, I thought this would be a constructive discussion but I guess I was wrong.

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Au contraire:

And this:

I used hive-mind since it was an expression you used in your OP, to discuss spirits - I was making the point that the same thing you say about them, applies to us. :+1:

Completely different methods to what? Grimoire trad., do you mean, with the compelling under godnames etc? I ask for clarification, not snark - the difference is not always clear in text.

My answer would generally be that the same spirits tend to like the same things (Belial will often opine about your sex life, Azazel will generally like a bit of formality from most people) and this is why it’s called “unverified personal gnosis” - which states the lack of verification is there, but not as a demeaning label, just as a statement of fact.

Over time these things become generally agreed upon to be a feature of that spirit (the peer-testing approach) but that does not mean that, if they fail to act that way towards someone, we can automatically assume that person is deluded or in contact with an imposter.

There are more “tells” available in this system than are listed in the grimoire descriptions, which are all very short and often, obtuse or in code.

The descriptions are also biased by the beliefs of the time - Buné can assist in contact with deceased family members, but to the people of the grimoire era, “dead is dead” and it was considered to be “god’s will” that the veil never be lifted aside, so this would have seemed an abomination, they were supposed to lay in wait for Judgement or be in purgatory or heaven etc.

Both older and newer spiritual explorations found this not to be the case, therefore, what she does is not perceived as demonic or unnatural.

Can we just not go there?

I thought we were having a debate where we put forward points of view? If you can only do zero-sum stuff, where you prove someone wrong or they prove you wrong/exert force on you, how is that driving forward knowledge?

Isn’t that what we both care about?

It’s just defensiveness and dogma waiting to find a channel where it meets no opposition.

Look how I have worked to research seemingly different perceptions of Belial, for example, in my link above, to see how you can also be part of driving knowledge forward by bringing your own experiences with these spirits.

You are very obviously committed to doing the work, and care about people not being misled. Don’t make me ban you by adding a side of jerk to that?

Stay and dial down the “bruised pride… projections and bollocks” nonsense and act like you’re talking to a fellow human being instead of an annoyance to be crushed. You may enjoy it. :stuck_out_tongue:


I contend that truth in magick (which is what I am addressing) can ONLY be verified by results. Fine philosophies on how one evoked X and they agreed and you did the ritual but oops, no result, because “it was not your time” or “it’s your karma” or - the all-time fave - “It was a test” is just bullshit, no matter what.

Either a spirit says “I will not do this for you” (and either gives a reason and further conditions, or does not) or, they are bullshitting, or maybe, your own mind is.

Results are the benchmark in magick, which is substantially different to religion and mysticism, that seek ideas, not material changes. :thinking:

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