Is there an advantage to working with the elements?

General Discussion
1

hello. im making this topic because i have gotten so many conflicting reports and i am wondering if i could put elements into my practice more than i do… i will explain why i am asking this. its a result of many opinions of different books etc.

i mainly work with initiation into hermetics by franz bardon. he highly emphasizes them and even says to not go further in the book until you master each element (including the akasha) the thing is i can already do step 8 in the book to a certain extent. mental travel or (mental wandering) is he calls it. Bardon purists say i need to stop and go to the beggining of the book. Will the elememts make these abilities more powerful? i have found with just working with the akasha and using prayer and affirmations it kinda automatically balances everything out…

i will be honest i dont have direct experience with the elements but i understand how they work just by reading so many books.

alot of my life i have followed tom campbell who worked with robert monroe back in the 70s. tom is a nuclear physicist and teaches basically everything in bardons book… being achievable only by reaching a point consciousness state by meditation. he can obe at will and he says the elements are a tool and not neccessary.

i find the elements fascinating but i also have read working with the akasha will automatically balance the elements anyhow.

i also seen chi masters use certain elements like the earth element to do absolute incredible things. but tom campbell says you can achieve these things simply by staying in a point consciousness state while doing these things. it takes practice but he even mentioned things like pyrokenesis you dont need the fire element and its just a tool.

what is your stance on this? i have nothing against the elements but being a large reader of bardon i find it holds me back.

for example i read alot of ea’s stuff and also the black magicians handbook and there were amazing energy raising techniques that seemed to get people out of their bodies etc.

i understand fire is a powerful gateway etc but can these things be bypassed? i feel held back by bardon but its one of my favorite books on magick. but i see people way ahead of me who dont use the elements much.

just wondering your opinion on this… when it comes to magick i like as simple as possible… bardons initiations into hernetics is a strict curriculum and im wondering if its time to move on to something else. i feel stuck. because i can do certain things way later in bardons book iih… even though i am not perfect. and whevever i say i dont use the elements much alot of people say im doing it wrong. (not on this forum) but if i already can do these things through a theta or theta gamma sync how am i doing it wrong?? i dont remember robert bruce mentioning the elements in astral dynamics.

tom cambell even said you can control the weather by your mind alone (like you REALLY have to master meditation. i think hes mastered it for like 30 years) while bardon and some other practicioners over the years say you must master the elements. i really like ea’s books and the black magicians handbook too because they give you step by step instructions. i feel like with bardon its like “here is the ability… now do it” but feels like he already assumes you know how to and doesnt give instructions. regardless .. i still love that book. i just feel really stuck. basically i just am working on mastering clairvoyance and mental / astral travel /soul travel to a very high level.

do you use the elements in your practices? or are you like some other authors out there like tom campbell that says they are not neccesarry and they are just tools?

2 Likes
2

I have used the elements, mostly through the technique of pore breathing. I haven’t mastered them by any means but if you are following Bardon, then you should probably stick to what he lays out in IIH. Personally, whenever I work through a particular system, I do it the way that is required within that system, even if I already have the “advanced” skills. The goal is learning and mastering that specific system so I don’t jump ahead. A good example is EA’s OAA curriculum. Even adepts who wanted to join had to start from the beginning.

I’ve never heard of this Tom Campbell guy you mention ( and I read very widely) but you will find a lot of conflicting opinions about everything in the occult and all you can do is gather the info and listen to your own intuition about it. If you want to continue to follow Hermetics, then the elements are a necessary part of that system. If you want to stop IIH, then you can ignore the elements.

3 Likes
3

thank you @darkestknight So like even though i can do step 8… which automtically came through step 1… funnily enough. i can continue with the higher abilities in the book as long as i stick to the system? for example i am on step 2-3 but i can already do step 8 and some clairvoyance… so i can continue those abilities but probably should go back to where i am at and master those earlier steps regardless? i can relate to you with sticking to a system. sometimes i wanna just stick to EA’s video courses and call it a day. i have almost all of them

1 Like
4

Yes, if you want to master the system. IIH is probably the most comprehensive magical training program ever put into print in the West. It can seem antiquated, dogmatic and a bit pedantic at times but it has a reputation for creating extremely powerful magicians. I wouldn’t skip any of the steps because it is cumulative, with each step building on the previous ones. Even if you can do step 8, that doesn’t automatically mean you can do step 7 or 6.

3 Likes
5

appreciate it :blush: i have the trilogy of his books. the second and third one make my hands heat up when i touch them. i have all the old hardcovers

6

The third book is supposedly his most powerful. How did you get your hands on the hardcovers? I would do some not very nice things to get those lol

3 Likes
7

:laughing: ebay!! i got so lucky not gonna lie… they have gone up in prices… by hundreds of dollars. i got them a long time ago and must have been at a good time… even the softcover of iih is pricey now. i just got frabato the magician too for 30 bucks. its a little tanned but its the old version… but i would say keep an eye an ebay… every now and then a deal on a hardcover on all 3 pop up but its rare

1 Like
8

if i ever find a good deal on a hardcover i will pm you if you like. some people sell them dirt cheap in good condition. im not sure they realize how much they are worth xD

1 Like
9

People like myself have built a kick-ass occult library only to lose it all. You never know what you can find in a used bookstore.

1 Like
10

How does Tom Campbell (or you) define a “point state of consciousness”? I haven’t come across that term before.

1 Like
11

i have lost books over the years i wish i had back :frowning: like i change a system or sell something only to find i wanna go back to what i no longer have… it sucks but its my own fault too when i do that. i kinda generally just lose stuff too for some reason.

yeah.. you know there is something kinda magickal about old book stores i think! especially really old books for me

1 Like
12

hey :blush: tom campbell is a nuclear physicist who wrote the book my big toe (trilogy) its like a thousand pages long… he created his own system. he teaches remote viewing and out of body and talks about psi phemomena. the ties it into a bow of how it all works. its based off digital reality and the consciousness is the only fundamental thing. basically we are a piece of consciousness from god (but he calls it the larger consciousness system)

point consciousness in his terms is basically just meditation and reaching a certain state. you know when you get really deep in meditation and the space in front of you gets really really huge and you get a sinking feeling? thats what hes talking about. then he says if you keep practicing that to where you can master that and do it at will anything is possible. every siddhi you can think of. like chi masters that can light stuff on fire etc they get into that state in seconds… and if they can hold it they just have an intent to do it and they do it with their mind… not so much energy. he says chakras… and all these things are just metaphores. and that there is nothing wrong with them but they arent needed.

i have personally felt my chakras to a point there is absolutely no denying theres something there… but he still says its just a tool. its all consciousess and the driving force is the intent. bending metal with your mind etc. he does have a lot of credibility he and another engineer i believe did experiments with robert monroe back in the 70s. its a cool model because literally its just mastering meditation. i think point consciousness he is just talking about the theta gamma sync. but its like you REALLY have to master it. he mentioneed monks that fight and blow people back with energy is really just their intent. its not the earth element etc… but these monks have trained their mind to the point they live in a point consciousness (i think he means theta gamma sync?) all the time… and what you can do in that state is literally anything bardon writes about.

as far as me i flip flop between systems all the time… i think maybe all of them end us up in the same place maybe… but im still just kinda cherry picking with things that sound good… or i already know. bardon says you can literally become invisible. i can not do this and even if i could insure as hell would not tell anybody :laughing: but i do have a fascination with siddhis. not to show them off but just to engage in… i find its best to never demonstrate stuff… then people ask why and you explain and they just think its all not real anyway

2 Likes