Is The Source the Demiurge?

I don’t exactly buy that, it’s another way of placing a veil of “unknowing” over something.

The problem with that is that multiple things can be thought of as being formless. Void, Chaos, and Source can all be thought of as indeterminate by definition of there being no determinate way to describe them.

In fact, your argument points to an underlying unity beneath Source and Void, since Soul Travelers’ experiences have shown that Source and Void are in a sense different. The problem is that merging with the Source does not mean that the Source is the real unity.

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Not “unknowing” but unquantifiable.

Formless is not a definition of Source, by which I mean that which lies back of, and behind (so to speak) all things - to call it merely formless says it cannot take form, that it has an opposite which is formed - but anything with an opposite cannot truly encompass all things, and contain all paradoxes.


the source is not space, it is not time, it is not energy, it is not matter, it is not thought, and it is not desire… nor is it the absence of these things. so really it is all and it is none, at the same time, transcending both. it is both a perfectly balanced equation and it is a paradox.

i dont think anyone can literally go there (or at least, not be able to return to existence)… i think when people “go there” they really just go to a representation of it, cuz “going there” implies that it has a border, which it doesnt because it cant be defined nor constrained,


nor can it be added to or subtracted from, so things and people cant go into it because then they would be adding themselves to it… but it is already them because it is the already complete potential of everything and everyone… am i making sense?


like… you cant move into a position you already occupy… because if you “do” then you havent really moved at all


My experience has been that Void is the space of the “breathing in” negative energy in which all potential exists, without form, and that one thing people call Source is the bindi/point of first creation (“breathing out”), that transcends all polarities and surpasses the prinaciples (vibration, gender, cause and effect) described in the Kybalion BUT which is still by way of having quantifiable aspects and being approached quite easily in a relatively normal state of mind - Joe Vitale describes it as a white board, and it can be worked with as such.

If Source has come to mean some Demi-urge linked to a small regional tribal godform, that leaves out as ever all the worlds and all the civilisations prior to Moses/Akhnaten/Zoroaster who had no such concept.

Going into Source past that point, you truly lose your mind (as in loss, not going insane) because as @anon27714670 says, you cannot technically “add yourself” to it, as you already are there and are originating from there - but the stronger your ego and will, the longer you can hold some aspect of basic You-ness (desire, and will) in order to operate with a substantial amount of its innate power that transcends cause and effect, time and space whilst still being able to direct it in one way, and not another.

I typed some of my experiences and thought about this in this thread: "In Darkness Bound" And The Psychology Of Demons.


Exactly, that’s why concepts like up, down, ascent, fall, etc., are useful metaphors but also binding chains if taken too literally. :+1:


One more thing before I go to make breakfast - IMO the question is not “Is The Source the Demiurge?” but rather, “Has the Demiurge lied about being the Source?”

And IMO the answer to that is yes, and to tens of millions of people, but the jig is up! :wink:


Void is the state of complete non-existance. Anything that exists must stand upon the void. The source is the very first state of causality to arise from the void. Many of us have contacted and unified with source, but I can’t logically rule out the existence of multiple sources.

I conceptualize the source as the light, and the void as the true source. The void could be understood as a state of existence having infinite potentiality and no actuality. Looking at it like that means that source is less of a creator and more of a gatekeeper. Source sacrifices potentiality in order to bring about actuality.

Thusly, Void can be seen as light and source as dark. Chaos is everything trying to exist at once, and the source destroys most of it so that we can think straight and have this conversation.

Up is down. Forward is sideways. Death is life.
Wait… what were we talking about?


No, the source isn’t. I’ve been part of it temporarily… It is the beginning and end of everything in existence.

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It’s starting to make sense now. The Source is the “One” underlying Void and the Demiurge. The Demiurge is what you call the “Source”, the first binding point of creation.

Gnosticism wouldn’t make the concept of the Demiurge so small as to include only one particular entity when it explicitly describes their idea of the Demiurge as that which is responsible for creation.

Still, the main point was that there is a bigger One underlying what most people would still call the “One”. The One that you call the One, the underlying unity of Source and Void in the unmanifest absolute (including that which is manifest and unmanifest), is still not the ultimate One.

Although, I honestly don’t know what the relation of the “One” you talk about is to the Void and Source.

Worship your self.

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The Demiurge is the head Archon who wishes to remain in power. It sees humans as livestock.


It’s possible that the demiurge is so conceited that it thinks it is source and the universe it inhabits is the only universe.

In one version of the story is that a goddess created him accidentally out of her emotions and then made a universe to contain him. The demiurge just assumed he created, her, that universe and everything in it. The goddess became the Earth we know as Gaia to watch over humanity.


Keep hearing that name
Can you give me a brief explanation on what is an Archon?

A servant of the Demiurge. They are spirits who sometimes look like “grey aliens” or cyborgs. They use the energy that humans create to live. Parasites who control the world and relish suffering and praise . They feed from the praise that humans give to “god” which is just a lie.

The Demiurge is the king of these things. Known as Saklas, Chnoubis, and other names. Depiction is usually a lion with a snake body.

These beings trick you into going into the light after you die. They can imitate your loved ones to help you come in. You apparently go into the moon where a representative meets you. You review your life and they usually try and get you to go back. It’s to recycle your soul and give them more suffering to feed on.

You can reject the light and go back to the source, which is henosis. You merge with the All. Should you reject both options you are sent to Limbo, a place of levels of restriction. Level 3 is the worst thing because you can be trapped in a moment forever. Levels 1 and 2 are varying degrees of restrictive existence- you have more freedom but you are not free. You will likely live a form of your life forever. The madness is you will live the same routine for eternity as punishment for not choosing either the source or Archon reincarnation.

All my thoughts though.


Lmao I’d sucker punch that grey alien-like “bitch tf move out my way”

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Just keep in mind there is no Punishment Beyond death
That’s actually a trick of the Demiurge!
Just reject the Demiurge and go on your joly way.


This is all complicated by the fact that this isn’t the only world that exists. Modern Abrahamic-descended occultism works very hard to obscure that. Kether and the stuff above it are the “egg” or sphere that enclose THIS world. There are zillions of eggs. An egg is like a software code for a video game. When you decide to experience a particular world, you project your mind into the egg. Your mind reads the software code and this splits into two compartments - one that renders the experience of an external “world” as written by the program, and an avatar or localized consciousness that moves in the world in order to experience it.

It kinda looks like this–

The center is where the avatar/experiencing compartment stands and looks out, and the toroidal field around it is the part that renders and projects the experience back to the avatar. Eastern writers tend to explain this and Western writers tend to obscure it - especially when they’re translating Eastern texts! This is fundamental to understanding the logic of magic. When you cast a circle, you’re reclaiming conscious control over your “exterior” environment. The hexagrams/pentagrams/circles are all mapping this physical space. Everything comes down to communication between the two compartments. The reason Western writers obscure this is because everything you experience in this reality is being rendered out of the substance of your own mind. Yes, there are “other people” - but they’re in their own little pods having their own experiences. The “person” you experience is rendered out of the substance of your own mind. Yes, there are “gods,” but they are rendered out of the substance of your own mind. Western occultism depends on a mythological hierarchy - of superior and inferior persons - also on the idea of “ascending,” some people are “further along” than others, there are “higher” beings that “lower” beings must submit to. In other words, if there IS an archon, you’re making it and you control it.

Archon theory seems to be a negative version of Hinduism. You have the same idea of souls going to the moon to feed the gods, except instead of the idea that we feed the universe and the universe feeds us you have this predatory idea.


Don’t you mean exercise desire and will to form breakfast out of its opposite, non-breakfast?