How do I explain this to a religious person?

So I don’t believe in “God” the way a Christian does, but I see their God as more of an egregore, that I am sure of. Now most Christians believe that angels come from their ‘divine creator’, so as a Luciferian witch, how do I explain my beliefs on the existence of angels to a person with a more mainstream religion like Christianity? I ask this because I don’t believe they are these ‘divine servants’ that they’re made out to be, so what are some good arguments against angels coming from God/Yahweh/Jehovah or whatever other name people use?

Does anyone have any information on other potential origins of angels? Were angels always there? I believe angels have been around much longer than most people realise but I have nothing to back it up with. Any interesting theories?

Edit: I am trying to ask, what are some theories or alternative explanations as to the origins of angels?

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Now living in the South, I’ve realized you can’t make these arguments at all. It’s best assume that people will believe in what they want to believe no matter what you explain to them. Christian or otherwise. I say just do a spell to protect yourself from religious folk and be on your way. You can’t convince someone who doesn’t want to be convinced.

I’m not trying to be mean. It took me a few years to learn this lesson.

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No, I learned that lesson a long time ago. I’m more asking, how do I explain my beliefs on angels to a religious person without them scanning for flaws or loopholes in my explanation? Also, I don’t entirely know how to explain my perception of angels, other than I don’t believe they were created by THAT guy lol

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I agree with @Jaden_Isaac there is no point to explain anything because they will never ever understand you.

From what I saw it’s not just religious people but there are things even if you say to your fellow magicians they won’t accept it.

That’s why the hermitic law of to know, to will, to dare, TO KEEP SILENT applies to most people even if they don’t follow hermeticism.

There is no explanation that you’re going to give and they will understand it.

And for me, even Jesus himself I see him as magician who may help and assist you on your magick. Now tell that to a devout christian how do you think they will react?

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I’m not gonna lie and say I follow my own advice all of the times. In fact, I only follow it some of the times. I’m just saying that, in my experience, it end well. If you’re feeling rebellious, and want to spook someone, go right ahead.

There’s a book about the hermetic law, I found it to be too boring however as it waffles on without getting straight to the point.

But then how can one explain that they don’t believe angels came from any ‘God’? :thinking:

Don’t know how that is a “Hermetic Law”. That saying seems to originate with Eliphas Levi, and was incorporated into Thelema and Wicca.
I want to add here, since it should be said more often, that the Kybalion is not Hermetic.

Now, regarding that saying and idea with it, in the very start of the Corpus Hermeticum, Hermes Trismegistus preaches openly to the world about his revelations.

You simply say you don’t believe that Angels come from God, and explain where you believe they come from if they don’t come from God, and that God is some kind of Egregore or whatever your personal beliefs.

If there are holes in it, there are holes in it, and if you don’t want holes to be in your explanation and argument, then you’d need to change your argument or beliefs.

I hope this post does not come off as aggressive. It’s hard to display tone over text.

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Yes but the problem here, is I don’t know where I believe angels came from and that’s where the many users of the BALG forum come in. I would like someone to offer me some theories on where angels could have potentially originated from.

My personal theory, is that angels, as well as demons and gods, are personified cosmic forces, given shape and form by humans. I like Jason Miller’s term “organized consciousness” to describe what spirits are. I don’t believe they originate with a single creator god, but are basically universal forces that help maintain the structure of reality. Humans, being creators ourselves, mould the form and function of these forces with our own consciousness. This is why context matters when you are summoning them. How you call them plays a big part in how they will present themselves to you.

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We see various qualities within everything in this world. A plant that is very beautiful and has a pleasant smell tends to be ruled by Venus, and these plants tend to have great generative ability, and when gathered and ingested (if not toxic) at an appropriate time (that is, astrologically), they tend to aid the organs in man that are ruled by Venus, and have a magickal effect towards the things ruled by Venus.

All plants are similarly ruled by the 7 Classical Planets, and all Animals (and in fact, all things in this material world) are also ruled by the Planets. With this, they have power over them, and move as the Heavenly bodies move, and talismans made of those plants have power over the things under them.

But, these animals, these plants, these minerals, these all existed before man came into existence. Yet they were constantly brought into the world by these higher forces.

In Platonism, everything ultimately comes from The One. The One is not considered to be a spirit, or an intelligence, but rather it is the very Ground of Being. And from it came the Demiurge, who in Platonism, is considered to be entirely benevolent, unlike in Gnosticism (Plotinus himself was a Gnostic prior to becoming a Platonist, and makes arguments against them in his Enneads). The Demiurge is identified with Zeus.

Orpheus says this of Zeus the Demiurge, as quoted by Aristotle and Proclus:

“Zeus is the first. Zeus the thunderer, is the last.
Zeus is the head. Zeus is the middle, and by Zeus all things were fabricated.
Zeus is male, Immortal Zeus is female.
Zeus is the foundation of the earth and of the starry heaven.
Zeus is the breath of all things. Zeus is the rushing of indefatigable fire.
Zeus is the root of the sea: He is the Sun and Moon.
Zeus is the king; He is the author of universal life;
One Power, one Dæmon, the mighty prince of all things:
One kingly frame, in which this universe revolves,
Fire and water, earth and ether, night and day,
And Metis (Counsel) the primeval father, and all-delightful Eros (Love).
All these things are United in the vast body of Zeus.
Would you behold his head and his fair face,
It is the resplendent heaven, round which his golden locks
Of glittering stars are beautifully exalted in the air.
On each side are the two golden taurine horns,
The risings and settings, the tracks of the celestial gods;
His eyes the sun and the Opposing moon;
His unfallacious Mind the royal incorruptible Ether.” (I. P. Cory, Ancient Fragments, Orphic Fragments, 1832 ed)

The Demiurge gave life to all the Gods, who are similarly benevolent, as Socrates rejected the Anthromorphism of the Gods. And the Demiurge inwardly nourishes the entire cosmos as we see from Orpheus.

They in turn created the entire cosmos (that word itself means “that which is beautifully ordered”). And it is inappropriate that the older serves the younger. So, we cannot compel the Gods, they do not serve us, we cannot dominate them. And in fact, since the entire spiritual world predates the material world, we cannot destroy spirits. Some on here have tried, and since the mind is illusory, they believe they have succeeded. But when others call upon these spirits, we find they are safe and sound, and their effects are completed in this world.

So, we did not create The Gods, and so cannot force them to serve us, or compel them, but rather their own goodness overflows. And they leave their signature on all things in this world.

This concept of The One is seen by all sages in all cultures. The concept of the Demiurge is similarly near-unversal, as almost all cultures recognize a God who is higher than all the rest.

As to where the Angels of Judaism and Christianity come from, that can be a complicated question to answer. The God of Judaism was not always considered the Highest, as in the Demiurge, and was seen to be below El when the religion was still among the Canaanites. But regardless, the Angels are seen to be servants of the Almighty, the Demiurge, so I suppose it is reasonable to say that they are servants of the Demiurge. I am uncertain of they are directly so, or are in the Court of the God of Judaism as a God below the Demiurge. In any case, they appear to be highly benevolent, just as all the Gods.

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I’d simply say something along the lines of: I don’t believe God is personified, but is simply a universal force or concept - Logos (“In the beginning was the Word…” – Genesis 1:1). Angels are aspects or facets of the universal force (suffixes -el and -iah meaning “of God”). Since the Abhrahamic God was personified by humans in the old testament, Qur’an, etc., it could be argued that angels therefore predate “God”, since the concept each angel represents also predates the triplicate God – “wrath” (of God), “peace” of God, “justice” of God, “healing” of God, “mercy” of God, and so on, being the meaning of the names of certain angels (I assume, I don’t have a memorised list).

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I sent a P.M.

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This is an interesting theory, it is undoubtedly true that our minds are extremely powerful and it is common occult knowledge that we can create spirits (servitors, though I don’t like that term). I think I’m going to take this theory on board as it makes the most sense to me.

I appreciate your reply. :slightly_smiling_face: Thank you.

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This is also a plausible theory as well as what Darkest Night said. I believe your reply gives my explanation more context.

Very juicy theory, food for thought, thank you.

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Besides, isn’t talking about advertising your religious or spiritual beliefs a thing belonging to the Abrahamic religions? Wouldn’t this count as a habit we’ve learned from being brought in or near religion?

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