Help with bardonian Evocation! Decipereing the book of formulas?


#1

I’m very versed in ritual magick. However I need to know what bardon means by I quote “The book of formulas, which is also mistakenly called the book of spirits, is actually a tree magical diary of the magician who is praciticing ritualistic magick. IN the diary he records his working procedures step by step, so that he can proceed point by point in conscientious manner and thereby reach his objective. Man readers might now ask how such garbled formulas come into being. Since time immemoiral the great mystery of magic has always been the property of the higher castes alone, of petentates and high priests, so that the real truth and ideas, spiritual advice and so forth did not get into the hands of the general publicv. Hence the people who has this working devised various CODE NAMES, the so-called formulas, whereas, on the other hand, only the INITIATES had the key to decipher these formulas.”

The key to deciphering these formulas was passed on only to the mature and only by word of mouth, and an profanation could only be atoned by penalty of death. Consequently these teachings have remained a SECRET to this very day. and in the future the will remain occult and mystical even though the are published for everyone to read, because the immature and uninitiated will consider these writing to be mere fantasies and fallacies and, in accordance with their degree of maturity and spiritual receptivity, each of these people will have their own individual opinions and explanations. That is why even the most secret things will never never lose their occult tradition and only a few human being will be able to draw benefits from these teachings…

SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT HE MEANS BY THIS?


#2

I can’t tell if you’re trying to be comically ironic here or if you’re asking a legitimate question.

However, I’ll bite and give you the benefit of the doubt. What he is referring to is exactly what your producing here - no offense, mind you.

He is basically saying, there is no need to record your magickal knowledge and operations in secret codes only known to other initiates. The reason being is that even if you keep your records in plain, easy to understand language, those who are uninitiated - or those who are not spiritually mature enough to handle it, will not understand what has been written anyway - thus nullifying the very reason for encoding your records.

Again - no offense intended here, but do you see the irony in asking your question?

So basically - you don’t need any help understanding or deciphering these works if you are spiritually mature enough to comprehend it. This is the very essence of what is written in the two paragraphs you have posted.

And - if your point in posting this was indeed to be ironic - bravo - I took the bait. :slight_smile:


#3

And bravo to you as well, DKM; well said. I would add to that by mentioning that we are often challenged or confounded by such texts because we don’t give ourselves enough credit for the wealth of understanding we DO have - kind of a shaky self image thing. There’s so much information out there and ALL of it is worded in the unique perspective of the Artist. If we aren’t familiar with their frames of reference it can bog us down trying to figure it out…Personally, I approach such information with the attitude that: if I cannot grasp the sense or meaning right away I’m okay with that because its been my experience that it’ll become clear to me down the road, when I actually have use for it…


#4

Well put Zoe


#5

divine_madness,
From your entire post, I venture to say you probably are already aware of the cipher that Bardon used in the naming of some of the spirits in his material. But if not, here is the cipher page material it is said he gave to his students of the actual names instead of what his book named them.

http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Stejnar.html

Maxx


#6

[quote=“Maxx, post:5, topic:49”]divine_madness,
From your entire post, I venture to say you probably are already aware of the cipher that Bardon used in the naming of some of the spirits in his material. But if not, here is the cipher page material it is said he gave to his students of the actual names instead of what his book named them.

http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Stejnar.html

Maxx[/quote]

I have not heard this. Fascinating. However - if this is the case, then what is the point of this passage? And has anybody verified this? I have had some success working with some of these entities. So if there is, indeed, a code - it either does not matter so long as the proper sigil is used, OR I have been working with the wrong entities :stuck_out_tongue: hehe
The man who runs Merkur Publishing and who has translated the Bardon books lives right here in Salt Lake City. I will bring this to question next time he gives a public forum.


#7

If you view that site it will tell that this came from one of Bardons students which he said Bardon give them this personally. Also the site is created from a Rawn Clark that has spent his whole life with the study of the Bardon material. It was stated that Bardon created this to protect everyone involved keeping a non trained magician out of the loop to protect even himself from the dangers not fully understood with what is going on. Bardon stated that there might be small results but it would be more profound by using the correct names. I do not know as this comes from what is posted in all the material. This comes from the book A Bardon Companion. I found the volume of info about Bardon and what he was doing very interesting from the writings there.

Maxx


#8

I have so enjoyed reading this conversation - the whole thing. I don’t have a clue what y’all are discussing, but … THIS is what the Forum is all about! Love it!!!


#9

Remember that Bardon’s cipher doesn’t apply to all the entities. For examples, the names of the genii of Mercury and Jupiter are correct as they are written.


#10

Yes, it doesn’t matter if you know very much or little about magick… We always learn something new each day :wink:


#11

Yes, in fact, as far as the cipher goes - here are a few points I wanted to bring up to help clear this issue further.

  1. Bardon was ordered by the angel Urgaya to write each of his books except for Frabato The Magician. That his orders were to divulge the secrets of ascent so that ANY man might use them and be their own guru. This simple means that either A) There are no ciphers in his works, however they were used in letters to his students before he was issued this commandment. Or, B) that there are some ciphers but when the student follows his prescribed pathworking (aka mastering everything in The Initiation Into Hermetics before working with anything found in The Practice of Magical Evocation) meaning, after the student has mastered everything in the first book, the ciphers will become obvious and the key given to decipher them.

  2. Many of the names in The Practice of Magical Evocation have pronunciation marks above or underneath some of the letters within the name. (ie: Ä, Ê, æ, Ç, etc.) If, the name was a cipher, these letters would have either a match in the cipher table (which they don’t) OR there would be an explanation in the presentation of the cipher itself as to how to adjust for these marks.

Tania brought up the fact that only some of the entities were ciphered and others were written correctly. Again - a mystery as to why (if this is indeed the case) this obfuscation was effectuated by Franz Bardon, unless, as I mentioned before, there was some underlying instruction spiritually inserted into the path working that would make itself evident when the student becomes ready. Whether an entity assigned to deliver the instruction, instruction spiritually encoded into his works, or perhaps a level of clairvoyance would have been attained wherein the cipher would become obvious and the student would seek out information concerning the perceived oddity in the names of the spirits.

My tendency is to believe that the names are written correctly as is and that the cipher was a tool used by Bardon to obfuscate his messages to his students before he was given the task by Urgaya to reveal all the secrets such that any man might reach ascent in this life time. That’s some pretty intense instruction, and I haven’t read anything of his yet that would indicate any of the information was encoded or symbolic at any level. It is written in plain and concise, easy to understand language.

One more thing I noticed. Bardon names Urgaya in Frabato The Magician. Urgaya does not appear in PME, neither do any of the translations of his name using the Bardon cipher. Just for good measure, I deciphered Urgaya both forwards and backward in accordance with the cipher.

U R G A Y A
I T W E J E —forward
O B N E E —backward

However, in the interest of resolving this issue. I propose a textual translation of each spirit in PME (apparently this was already done, however the link at the bottom of the cipher page leads to a non-existent page).

As is mentioned on the cipher page:

"When Mr. Stejnar worked with the moon and sun sphere, he realized, that the spirits of the moon sphere are the same as told in old grimoirs (e.g. Agrippa), that the genii of the sun sphere correspond to the names of fixed stars, and that the spirits of the zone girdling the earth are identical with the spirits described by “Abramelin the Mage”. "

Meaning that a quick textual search for the names of the sun sphere should yield results. Which it didn’t. I ran several of the translated names directly through the three books of Abremelin with no results. I tried some of the “extended translations” with very little success.

In addition to this, according the the Bardon cipher page:

PME Decipher extended translation

AMSER ELNAT probably EL NATH
EMAYISA ALEJONE ALCYONE
WYBITZIS PJROKON PROCYON
WYBALAP PJRESEF PRAESAEPE
EBYTZYRIL ARJKJTOS ARCTURUS
BELEMCHE RASALHA SEEMS LIKELY TO BE RASALHAGUE

Granted, I cherry picked some of the more obfuscated names. However, if Bardon was using his cipher - why would he not make a direct cipher? For example, if he was encoding the name alcyone with his cipher, it would be “Eshjuga” a FAR cry from EMAYISA.
Why would Bardon make it even more difficult to decipher by obfuscating the outcome?
A cipher? So far in my limited research into this case, this cipher sounds unlikely. And if there is a cipher - these deciphered names listed above and on the cipher web page are far cries and do not traslate directly to entities names. This seems odd to me as well. One last thing - Rawn purports to have studies and mastered Bardon’s material - yet his very deciphering is questionable - even by his own hand he has question marks after some of the translations. Someone who has mastered Bardons works would KNOW without a doubt whether these were proper deciphers of the names.

Another thing about Rawn (I may be wrong, but this is what I gather) I asked the local publishing company (Merkur) if they knew of any local magicians who have mastered Bardons materials, possibly someone I could apprentice under. Their response was that if there was, they wouldn’t know it because anyone who has mastered IIH would be such a master as to not speak their success to anyone. If Rawn is a true seeker and follower of the Bardon method, it is unlikely (at least in my opinion) that he would have made it known in the manner that he has. Don’t forget - in our world, there are very few legitimate magicians who’s names are well known. There is a reason for this. There are far more frauds then there are legitimate practitioners. Rawn (after listening to his mp3 meditations and reading much of his online work) strikes me as someone who purports to know much more than he really does. I don’t get the feeling that he is an all out fraud, but I do get the feeling that he is definitely no master of Bardon’s system and he’s definitely making out like he knows a massive deal more than he really does.
That’s just my impression after reading and listening to everything I could get my hands on via the web.
I very well may be wrong - I’m just giving my opinion in this matter.
As always, I am very open to rebuttal, comments, addenda, etc.
:slight_smile: Mucho love-o
Namaste

===== EDIT =====
Also, one must remember that Bardon wrote his works in his native tongue, German. Are these names the same as in German? Or were they translated phonetically? When taking the cipher into account, there are a good many questions to be raised about Rawns claim IF there was a phonetic translation. I may have some time tonight to investigate this. If I do, I will definitely post :slight_smile:


#12

I am so sorry I put you into that search…but at the same time it appears you made yourself more solid and grounded in the material. All of your questions are very valid.

I have been friends with one of the spirits for quite some time and I looked at what his name would change with the cipher…and I am more comfortable using the name first given…no way I would change it unless he said to.

Maxx


#13

[quote=“Maxx, post:12, topic:49”]I am so sorry I put you into that search…but at the same time it appears you made yourself more solid and grounded in the material. All of your questions are very valid.
I have been friends with one of the spirits for quite some time and I looked at what his name would change with the cipher…and I am more comfortable using the name first given…no way I would change it unless he said to.
Maxx[/quote]

haha,
No need to apologize. :slight_smile:
I had a great time actually. If I had my wish, I would study 50% of my day, ritual the other %50 and eat, go to bed, repeat.
I had a great time looking this stuff up, running the searches, making comparisons, analyzing the data. Absolutely no need for an apology. The cipher is a fascinating prospect, which is why it intrigued me so. If anything, you should be saying, “you’re welcome, DKM!” :slight_smile: hehe for giving me something to run on for a while.
Thanks :slight_smile: Very interesting material - plus I ended up finding a great PDF directory of several of the major grimoires. In fact, I’ll share it - excellent site!

http://www.hermetics.org/library/Library_Grimoires.html

And of course the home site has an even more extended list of occult libraries one can browse through.

But yeah - no apology needed. At all :wink: