When we begin our path in the occult, we want money, glory, knowledge, power and all the material things that go with it. That’s before we come to realise the nature of magic as a reality, when we’re still curious, skeptical and whatever else.

Eventually our experimentation pays off and we chalk it up to coincidence. Sure, it’s working, but we’re not ready to accept that, yet. Then one day, something just clicks. The veil falls away and for a brief moment, we understand everything. We accept that magic is the only reality in the universe, and we begin to intellectualise concepts like the holographic universe. We understand that all information in our universe is dynamic, and the material (ie Malkuthian) manifestation is merely the facade of deeper, and far more interconnected currents of energy which do not have as their “real” existence the material world we observe around us.

This extends to encompass laws of physics and chemistry, which become just the machinery projected into our physical perception from the information of the universe, with magical currents serving as the generating impulses. (The tarot helped me understand this).

These days, I’m still poor, lonely and out of cigarettes, but where’s that drive to master everything I see, and everyone I meet? Why do I not care so much about the things that led me to magic in the first place, now that it’s become the guiding force in my life? It’s not only that I no longer want, or can’t be bothered manifesting things in my life… It’s that I have no desire to even want things, anymore, let alone worry about making them manifest. When a new desire comes along for a pretty girlfriend or a fancy car, I just laugh it off and wish it well as I release it back into the universe, knowing instinctively that these things would never satisfy me. I have yet to find something I believe will actually be satisfying.

Is it complacency? Is it “spiritual evolution”, as most mystics were homeless beggars anyhow… Or is it simply a psychological aberration; simply a kind of mental illness brought on by delusion? I’m open to all theories, but I’ve noticed it’s a common syndrome amongst serious occultists.

My work with Saturn has led me to experience the world as a futile experiment subject to end, death and decay like all things, and this no doubt makes me a little cynical as to the lasting and enduring power of… anything at all. Nevertheless, one would think that immediate human compulsions would still urge the acqusition of more money, fame, power, glory and knowledge, if only within the bounds of a modest existence.

What I can’t understand is why, as I further my experiments and my understanding of magical practise, I feel such urges less and less, to the point where I have completely rejected those things which seem to be required for human functioning (such as greed and licientiousness), and am content simply to exist as whatever I choose to be in the moment - but never as what others seem so determined to create and maintain.

Without sounding pretentious, the only way I can conceptualise it for myself would be to say that I feel as though I have evolved beyond petty human desires, and while I exist in the world, I am no longer a part of it (and neither do I wish to be, nor do I care in any way if such alienation should lead to my immediate extinction). Even the prospect of death seems vain and self-absorbed! (Again, due to my work with Saturn, no doubt).

Does anyone else feel this way? And can anyone explain it to me?

Kind regards, Tj.

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I think many people start out with a materialistic view of the occult, and this is fine as they see it as a somewhat better option, or indeed an easier way of achievement. I know I certainly felt that this was the bees knees initially as I thought I was dealing with superior forces that would give me whatever I wanted. As time went on and my eyes became more open to the realities of magic, I realised that it didn’t quite work that way.

I also realised that if you choose to stay materialistic with magic then you will have to work harder than most, become more motivated and practical in your approach to life and take opportunity even more so then what you did as a non-magical person. I find spirits very obedient and open to our requests, but they don’t seem to work too well with an idle basturd!

If you can overcome procrastination and stay focussed with your goals, then black magic with its ‘no holds barred rules’ will definitely give you more of a probable chance of success, as there’s no guarantees other than death. I also found that choosing to stay materialistic tends to keep your mind at a more mundane level where you can fall better into alignment with the requirements of the physical world and all its advantages.

Many people however wish to evolve more in a deeper spiritual sense and connect more with the higher levels of thought. This will naturally tend to push them away from the mundane and detach more from the physical in general. These people seem to desire pure mental freedom and will therefore learn the art of physical detachment. This is where we still recognise the material world around us but we learn to let go, and realise that we really don’t need these ego pleasers, these things are still here (whenever or if ever we choose to have them) but we are not controlled by them anymore.

It is only through a full detachment to the mundane that the evolvement of our spiritual understanding tends to ascend more freely without the claws of physical entrapment holding us back. This is why some of the most advanced adepts at times can appear to be very happy with no material desires and why many outsiders not knowing this ask that inevitable question…

“if you’re so good Merlin then why aren’t you rich!”

I can’t explain it, I can only offer opinion. And here it goes…

I think you’re suffering from spiritual growth. My current belief system tells me that Malkuth is meant to be a crucible. The world is shitty and fucked up with shitty, fucked up people, because it’s meant to be. This is where we are meant to “burn away” the illusions of physical existence, i.e., greed, lust, vanity, whatever. We come here to perfect ourselves, per se, so that we realize there is more than Malkuth to the Multiverse. I believe we are all born with this knowledge, and in fact are drawn to it like a moth to flame. But the glamour of the physical universe distracts us, keeps us from realizing this. For a while, anyway.

I think some people, like you, get to a certain point where you are aligned, or at least aligning, with this knowledge. You begin to realize this world is Maya, as the Hindus say. Your reason for being starts to shift away from the physical pleasures, and moves towards Divinity. Understanding. Wanting to take your next step in evolution. What once was bedazzling, becomes dull and uninteresting in comparison to the Mystery.

I’m not there yet. I still desire creature comforts, partaking in my hobbies, etc. Yet, I feel that “pull” towards the realm of spirit. It fills me with awe and wonder, and if I could, I would immerse myself in it. Alas, I’m still too connected to this world. I don’t feel that’s a bad thing, it’s merely a reflection of where I’m at on my journey. I think you’re simply seeing more of the bigger picture, and all that comes with it. Good for you.

ETA: What Savodonger said, lol.

Yep- I understand it… And I’m really happy that someone else feels the same way.

For me it’s not so much a case of not desiring physical things, but rather I easily get bored of them, and I feel there is ‘more’ to life, to existence. I’ve got so much that I want to say about this, but atm I’m recovering from a debilitating migraine and feeling really out of it, and so I’m currently struggling to even string a sentence together lol.

I wrote a looong post about my search for ‘more’, for ‘otherness’ in this:‘pleasantville’/

Sometimes i have the feeling that i’m struggling to make my cage more golden and comfortable instead of open the door and escape from it.

I gotta disagree. The path of the Goes is all about here and now. Bad Material circumstances = bad magic.

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Personally, I agree that the here and now is important. But I believe that is a lot more to life than the everyday, mundane experiences we associate with being alive. As black magicians, surely, we want to experience the very best that life has to offer? Basically, this is what I believe (to quote myself from the thread I mentioned above):

‘So to put it another way: are we like the citizens of Pleasantville? Existing in a little bubble of very, very limited perception- within a multiverse of endless possibilities and infinitely more blissful experiences? And if so, how do we tap into this ‘otherness’; how do we make this a part of our experience, right here on earth, in the here and now?’

there is no "sense"
there is no "meaning"
not for you, at least. not for me either. and not for anyone for that matter.

and when you lose yourself, when you let yourself die…

you let go of everything… because you are dead…

and this doesn’t mean you reject this or that. it doesn’t mean anything.

nothing means anything. ----- take that as a mantra… try yourself and repeat NOTHING MEANS ANYTHING

and when you cognize this, you let yourself be dead, and let your body to act. be what you are meant to be. and that is - part of everything.

fuck, what would happen if our cells would stop doing what they are meant to be doing? they don’t think… they act the Will.

so, when you kill your ego, which you can do this instant, drop everything, realize that you are probably hunchbacked in a chair, but gathering important information at the moment. now drop everything. drop dead and die.

let the Eternity Flow through that which you call yourself.

and eat a good dose of Psylocibe Cubensis if you’re overthinking it.

hmm… i envy those of you who still lust for things. it’s as much a prison to lack those desires, as it is to be guided by them.

@bahamuthat: i’ve already adopted the “nothing is real, everything is permitted” ideal and i do see where you’re going with your argument. to answer your question “what would happen if our cells stopped doing what they are meant to be doing”, well… again, what would it matter if all is part of eternity?

@Akasha: thanks, i’ll check out that thread a little later. just woke up yawn.

@Cogitation: death isn’t so big a deal because the body is just a vessel. death is just the beginning of a new and perhaps less-encumbered phase. unlike the satanic belief regarding obliteration of the ego at the time of death, magical studies show us that there is so much more, so the passing of my body into eternity doesn’t bother me in the least.

in fact, in my first book, i mention how the law of Conservation of Matter dictates that nothing new can be added to or removed from a closed physical system, so the atoms which make up our bodies (which we instinctively think of as being “us”) have existed almost 14 billion years, since the Big Bang (or, whatever it was). thus, the “soul” may not be the lasting and permanent part of us, as our atoms will continue unto the end of the universe, with or without our consciousness attached.

but it’s all about perspective. i don’t want to be President of Earth, so i’m happy with the perception that i am not. just as i am happy with all the other things i am not, and with all the things that i am. if material comfort falls outside of these expectations, then they are as meaningless as being President of Earth. “good” and “bad” material circumstances are relative at best, and with relativity comes the possibility of complete inversion; that being materially successful is “bad”, and that having nothing is “good”. such is the nature of any non-objective system. the irony is that, whereas i once longed for all the things i thought magic could bring me, i am equally troubled by the fact that i no longer want those things, now that i could have them.

this isn’t just vain masturbation, of course. i have actually used magic to materialise some incredible, unbelievable and statistically improbable things over the past few years, so i am convinced of the reality of my own works, but my rituals are becoming fewer and fewer, and the shell of desires i’d built around me and justified with the thought of “some day…” has cracked, and fallen down. in a sense, magic still can’t bring me what i want, and i’m not better off then when i started. in fact, it was probably better before, when i at-least knew what i wanted! or, that i wanted anything at all.

what does one long for in this world beyond those things it’s best suited to provide? perhaps art and philisophy? or maybe just a good cheeseburger. maybe i’m just becoming old and losing the fire of youth. i really don’t know :confused:


TJ, I went through that exact process as part of my RHP stuff, I wrote about that here - and sure enough the world started to slip away from me as I felt less attachment to it.

At times, it was a peaceful process, though I also identify it now as a symptom of a mental desolation brought about by the overbearing teachings in our culture that there is something WRONG with me, other people, and reality - which is utter nonsense, IMO. I wrote that stuff down recently here.

I’m going to go against the flow here and say this is NOT, in fact, the apex of enlightenment - simply the first step, and the one at which, at some point, you will have to make a choice.

It’s a process of drawing away from investing 100% in the embodied and seperated self, sure, which is one early phase of liberation, but not the complete goal, at least not if you don’t ultimately desire total formless merger back to Source: a merger in which there is no desire (because nothing is external, to be desired) and also no hope, no despair, no - well, No Thing.

If you want that, then go to it and good luck, you can certainly attain it (if an idiot like me can, etc) - but IMO the Left-Hand Path is a willed “fall” BACK to material existence, in which there is no “higher” level where we waft about with no desires and probably some fucking stupid robe that looks like a night-gown… I mean I’m joking about but it’s up to you to choose, to phase out of existence, or back in it, as a game this time - NOT a prison, however gilded - and change it up to be the way YOU want it.

Both are valid choices, since lack of desire to “come back” means you’re probably not going to make the most of it if you tried.

But for me, my Kingdom is, was and will be HERE and I don’t recognise any state aside from total dissolution to Source as being better or even equally valid, since the spirits and beings in those realms haven’t the same challenges to contend with that we do (which is often why they’re spectacularly bad at helping magicians and other spirit-workers with material needs).

IMO people who choose that merger once they realise 1. the material seperated self is illusory and 2. they can shed that seperation, are like unborn kittens being reabsorbed back into the womb, the matrix - they see that life beckons, but they fear it may be hostile and hard work, and they go back to unlife, pre-life.

I chose to be born, in a sense born a second time, this time consciously choosing to walk alone - to eternally seperate from the matrix - and with time, even become a creator myself.

IMO these are the fundamental differences between Right-Hand merger, ascent into disembodied and finally non-differentiated states - and Left-Hand seperation, isolate consciousness, etc.

Where do you rekindle the desire that draws you back? I don’t know exactly… maybe you have a lot more falling-away of desire to get to a point where you reject it;as I did, or maybe you won’t, I don’t know.

This has been my experience, bought and hard paid-for, so I’m not going to apologies or try to dress it up with fancy platitudes - you have the choice, to live, a true free man creating his own reality - or to merge back to formless, desireless, beingless No Thing. :slight_smile:

dear Tiberius, you may think that you have “adopted” “nothing is real blablabla”

but the Truth is, you haven’t.

i’m sorry.

this can not be understood sitting in a chair, nor thinking about it. nobody can give you enlightenment but yourself.

you may think that nothing is real, but without enough imaginative FORCE, which doesn’t lead you anywhere, and does nothing, and doesn’t serve any purpose.

but, when you cognize that there is NOTHING, but, OMG here exists this moment! and everything around me! WHY THIS IS MIRACLE!!

and out of that, strenght and virility come, as a part of the realizing that YOU HAVE THIS MOMENT IN ETERNITY, as all your ancestors did, and bees and flies and all things.

why act like a dissapointed and cynical and ungrateful?

get a woman and smell her. get a flower and smell that. stop your ejaculations - of semen, of emotions, of mind…

you don’t have to force yourself to hold your inner or outer smile.


when you truly understand that you don’t exist at all, but still everything exists, and you realize the MIRACLE, THE GREAT UNEXPLAINABLE PARADOX…

become an antichrist in your own right!

if you have ONCE had a lucid dream experience, you KNOW that the moment you realize that you are DREAMING, you gain APSURD AMOUNTS OF EXCITEMENT ABOUT EVERYTHING


^ This is the moment of rebirth IMO! :slight_smile:

There is No Thing - join with it, or step back out and co-create ALL THE THINGS! lol!!!

in REALITY, I (ego) is ensorcelled form of THEM (THE GODS)

the body is not “just a vessel” it is THE MIRROR OF THE GODS

all you have achieved has been the Work of The Gods. there is no you to take credits, or punishment. remember that. there is no you or I. you and I do not matter. Gods matter. Mother matters.

tap yourself lightly on the head while repeating this. and if it doesnt work, hit yourself harder. as long as you clutch onto perspective.

know that all misconceptions come out of lack of perception and adopted stupidity.

there is no need for thinking, there is no need for judgement. they are all part of the process of the Gods acting freely.

just look at your hand and try to move your fingers really slow. really slow. extremely slow. and notice everything that moves. you will discover that you can’t. you don’t have any control. you naver did have any control.

all YOU can ever do, is BLOCK THE FLOW. that’s all YOU ever do. just block things. get out of your way and let the Gods exist. let the nature unfold and admire.

I disagree completely with this, since the gods don’t even exist without we have to hear of them, read about them, or know of them first - ref: what azazel said, when you cease considering him, he ceases to exist.

And first, you have to create a You - a healthy stable ego - to be able and willing to work with these beings, with any other consciousness really, even just other normal human people.

In my RHP stuff I saw this vividly, understood how literally every thing manifest in my life was an aspect of me, made manifest. And I actually changed reality a few times, by manipulating those things…

I am the god of my own creation, I’ve experienced that, made it manifest upon the world, and seen the gods bow down before me in reaction to that realisation, so that’s why I’m not in alignment with what you’re saying here.

Still it’s all good and if what you’re doing works for you, then go do it! :slight_smile:

Dear Eva

you may disagree, and it still doesn’t matter.

we love to fool ourselves. the Gods are Mechanisms of Everything. you don’t have to consider your heart for it to start beating. and you don’t have to consider other people - they live even if you’re not considering them.

above is the same as below. so there is no difference between in and out.

that what Azazel said it the highest truth. but when taking this truth trough written words, this truth loses much of it’s meaning.

don’t clutch biblicaly on this truth because all is matter of perspectives.


seek the moments of nightside consciousness to see this. then you will know that there is nothing to disagree with.

[quote=“bahamuthat, post:15, topic:6602”]above is the same as below. so there is no difference between in and out.

that what Azazel said it the highest truth. but when taking this truth trough written words, this truth loses much of it’s meaning.[/quote]

I agree with that, and assure you I’m not “clutching biblically” :o) at anything - his words echoed my own experiences, that far predated me actually even knowing who Azazel was.

I don’t think it’s more true/obvious that we are “all you have achieved has been the Work of The Gods. there is no you to take credits, or punishment” - but for the person who believes it, this will become his reality.

“What the thinker thinks, the prover proves,” becomes more and more true the deeper you dig into the nature of reality, and what lies back of, and behind, your personal ego structure and belief in yourself as a seperated distinct being…

Edit to add, I took this discussion over to a different thread here so as not to derail this too much with my novelising… :slight_smile:

just to add for the end of my part of discussion:

What you consider comes into being for your perception. it didn’t magickaly conjure the moment you considered it, but it stepped out of the Darkness and came in your field of perception, for your consideration, to listen what you have to say, or to deliver it’s message to you.

Azazel spoke to EA Koetting, at that time, for his own level of understanding. He may speak to you more about the same thing, for clafirication. just ask.

thank you all for this beautiful discussion :-x

I didn’t first experience this as a thing related to me by another being - I saw it unravel first-hand, the world as nothing but the shadows cast by my own human personality, blocking the pure unlimited light of creation into forms of beauty or ugliness (depending mainly on subjective and limited perception), and observing things into being.

The preceding generations who bore me and co-created the reailty my infant mind was raised with were the same, as they are not seperate or “other” at their truest level, either… :slight_smile:

that’s true. we are Azazel.

Having just re-read the OP, and also Lady Eva’s replies, I think I may have misunderstood what tiberius_james meant… It seems that what you are saying is that you currently have no desire for anything, materialistic or otherwise at all?

If that is the case, the frustration that I’m currently experiencing in my own life is something slightly different. For me, personally, I do desire material things, BUT, I feel that there are a range of experiences that are even better than what we currently know of, experiences which could make us even happier (in the here and now). I just want to re-iterate again that I absolutely do not mean this in a wishy-washy, airy-fairy, RHP - forsake the physical to attain enlightenment-kind of way… I mean, that quite literally, I believe there is more to experience in this lifetime, more than we are currently aware of. It just makes so much sense to me that as black magicians, we want the VERY BEST from life?

This is my current goal- to try to understand what this is, and how we can attain it. It is entirely possible that my intuition is wrong- that there is nothing ‘higher’, that the material things like money, success, power etc ARE in fact the pinnacle of existence- well if that is the case, I would still want these things- like hell-yes I’d still want it! Because like i said, my goal is to experience the very best that life has to offer.

I hope that makes more sense? t_j maybe what you are experiencing is exactly what Lady E has explained? A sort of urge to RHP ‘merger with source’? Or maybe you’re just experiencing a temporary ‘boredom’ with life due to perhaps the same sort of intuition that I have, that there are greater experiences out there waiting to be discovered? I guess that’s something only you can answer at the end of the day…

But yeah, I’m loving this discussion. I haven’t read all of bahamuthat’s replies yet as I’m still quite sleep lol, but will do so during the day.