What do you guys think? Agree, disagree, qualify?
It is an interesting point of view, but putting that perspective in comparison to my own experiences - and probably to some other BALG-members and people who work with spirits on a daily basis - the “beggar” concept will be shredded in pieces.
As I see it, there is no unselfish actions when putting the idea into emotional rewards. Whether we drop coins to an actual beggar on the street, or help our friends in need, rewards are given to us in some way or another. Some might not agree about that, because they see rewards as something to be able to physically grab and visually to see.
Would a spirit or entity aid us by not getting something back? Sure, they work and function differently from us humans, and see things on a multilayerd level. Do they have the ability to refuse doing our “bidding”, if they see no reward from helping us? It happens, for some reasons.
If knowledge is the base source for power for a spirit or an entity, aiding us humans is raising their powers immensely. As I see it, every individual have a unique pattern to their own spirit and soul and to add a unique pattern within our own life experiences, the spirits who teaches us will get something in return.
To sum it up, I disagree with that writer.
When resources are perceived as scarce, beings in lower heirarchical spheres have 3 choices; starvation/want/pain, bullying (looting) those weaker, or begging (mooching) from the stronger.
It seems that hope motivates the honorable weak to request higher assistance; grace. Hope motivates the dishonorable weak to resort to bullying, looting, and arguing.The honorable weak respond with gratitude, and their skill and power increase. The strong benefit directly when their gift is met with thanksgiving. Quite an energy exchange. But, more than gratitude, the competency of those higher in the heirarchy increases.
My children want to take a trip to the park, but there are a lot of preparations to make. Now, my four-year-old desires to know how to fold clothes so we can get there faster. She asks me if she can “help” me with my laundry so she can maximize fun time genuinely thinking she is capable of really benefitting me (us), at this moment. I want to go to the park; not for the kid toys; for the beauty of the flowers, the peace and stillness - our desires parallel, but are worlds apart. SO, how helpful will she really be? She wants to make a pact to help me complete ALL the laundry. I know that’s stupid and will slow me down. BUT, if I take the time to teach her NOW, when she desires it, and requests to “help me help her increase playtime,” I reap gratitude, companionship, AND a time-based increase in power because in 3 more years, she will take over her laundry, freeing me to persue bigger and better things. Also, more park-time for her builds other competencies that will benefit me. So, I will focus my attention (love/passion/focus/devotion) on her and teach her. I allow her to “help” me, to bungle along, to learn proper execution, consoling and correcting when she is incompetent.
So, for a non-linear being, where time is no obstacle, and power is available, it perfectly logical to grant boons, request assistance, allow lesser beings to serve until they are stronger. We serve the strong to gain efficacy and grow. The illusion that we are making a pact (fair and valid contract) is maintained on all levels to sustain/facilitate growth.
What do I really truly have that Belial could want? Right now, absolutely nothing. I am a seed. But water the seed, nurture it just a little and see a magnificent increase in power - BECAUSE, I am totally ignorant of the magnitude of my request until it is granted (in fact, I may never fully comprehend the gift if I cease to strive and continue to lack experience/knowledge and remain time-bound).
Because I wish to increase my power, thereby increasing Belial’s influence, the so-called pact is granted. Human interraction is a poor parallel because we are not rational with our charity/compassion. For a spirit, now, the test is to see if the debtor behaves with honor meriting continuation of the contract, and paradoxically grace, or behaves dishonorably demeriting punishment/correction/abandonment.
For a rational human to grant a request on equal terms for mutual benefit and growth means they are reaching toward adulthood, toward the next heirarchical level. When we cease to be manipulated by our emotions and thoughts, we merit reward/increase as we directly increase those above us. I think that this is it. If a spirit sees no benefit nurturing the seed, it will die, be ignored, or abandoned no matter how hard the human begs; there is no investment.
We are taught to model this just grace (justice/mercy) with each other. Because most of us have no clue who we are (our drives, masks, true self), we do a piss-poor job and our “charity/compassion” is misdirected, whim-based/short-sighted, and irrelevant other than to produce a rosy emotional glow, but rarely allowing GROWTH for both parties. Most humans seem to think our short-sighted well-intentioned actions cause increase because we are taught obscurely (by other irrational whiny humans - spiritual infants), then they are baffled that the grown-ups won’t do our bidding. When we can’t/don’t perceive and comprehendall the consequences of our actions, we cannot act (move/change) with volition, precision, and accuracy.
But, meh, what do I know? I’m just a mom. Pro’lly totally off my rocker.
Nice way of putting it hJo. Makes a lot of sense in how you describe it to work. While in the short term there seems to be no benefit to the being, in the long term both parties reap the rewards.
Its the insane web of power structure that’s blowing my mind. If this happens on all levels, and why not?, then, its just as true of my entire contituency down to the last mitochondria powering my cells (who have their own DNA & RNA), as to the influence a supercluster has on the universe. Everything is vital down to the last particle, but nothing is important over anything else because it all relies on grace. It seems to be only a matter of how much responsibility you want to take on. And the grace doesn’t lessen as we take control, rather it grows more and more complex as we learn to flex our new power.
This is why its better to be in growth. Way better. I haven’t needed sleep in 4 days since these nifty little chakras began popping awake. Nothing could be more of a blast than a well run house with happy children, good food, a garden, and sunshine by day PLUS studying, meditation, and insane ritual work at night. And the hard-to-describe glow that emanates and pulses from my chest makes it such an absolute joy to do anything from blasting the 1812 overture at top volume to running through the lawn in the icy rain.
I can’t wait to discover precisely how all I just said is a ridiculous pack of lies. That’s what keeps the game fascinating.
I politely disagree with the writer of that article. Effective historical and contemporary Sorcery is NOT “Spiritual Begging.”
According to the LHP Masonic version of the legend, the Jewish God wanted man to remain a simple creature, who comprehended little and was relatively naive. The “Fallen” Angels had compassion on mankind and taught them to take control of their simple world and lives.
As I understand the story, according to the Masonic lore - sometime before 15,000 BCE - Tubal-Cain was a proud man who showed initiative and potential to the Daemon Azazel (who took pity on the sad state of mankind in general but not Tubal-Cain himself) and from the Daemon this man learned to craft metals from Iron Ore.
This simple gift of knowledge had a profound effect on history. The transformational Sorcery of the BLACKSMITH arose. Weapons were made, allowing Tubal-Cain to become unstoppable in dominating his world. Arts and jewelry adorned his people. Another gift was the concept of cosmetics, allowing the women of his tribe to be renown for beauty.
What had Tubal-Cain to offer Azazel? Certainly not much - however, looking back it is clear to see that the information was the basis for the foundation of our civilization. The alloys of Iron, Bronze and Copper invoked questions leading to crude chemistry, then onwards to sanitation, medical advances, chemical reactions and so forth.
Consider the statement - “As Above, So Below.”
Like a great Pyramid reaching from a lofty goal downwards to a wide well established base - From the small Daemonic “seeds of thought” have sprung to life complex computers, cars that park and drive themselves and the ability fly, all with little thought on our part…
All of this is staggering and we should be grateful. To whom? It is not the RHP Jewish God to be certain - he who would prefer man to live a life of quiet servitude and near desperation. It is the Hidden Hand of Azazel and other Daemon Kings that guides the evolution of mankind.
Tracing the effects backwards in time toward the causation - if the Masonic version of legend is true (and I believe it is) then the simple alliance of the spirits with one specific human being at the right place and time - can have enormous repercussions.
I think this story logically leads to what Tubal-Cain and we as Sorcerers have to substantially offer the Spirits - the interaction with humanity CHANGES the time line on our plane of existence. (Recall the movie “The Butterfly Effect” as an example.) This willingness to alter the time line on our part is, I believe - a fundamental part of what we have to offer. We can enact the physical wishes of the Daemonic - and also spiritually via “willpower” to cause changes to take place as well.
To what final end the time line will reach, who knows?
Effective Sorcery and Daemonic Workings in its various forms may be many things, but it is clearly NOT spiritual begging. An alliance with the Daemonic is just that. We are allies headed towards a distant goal, that we as humans may not fully understand… however be assured that Azazel and his brethren most certainly do.
frisvold…the answer is a lot simpler than you make it out to be.
‘the blessing always comes if you give a little bit more than what is expected.’
get rid of the idea that finance is the only value in life, and you see that you always have something to offer that others want.
the question is, are they too proud to see it?
what are you worth without money? if money is your only value, then YOU are the beggar.
even a beggar can teach you something. if nothing else, they can teach you how to endure hardship, and how to survive when you have little.
it’s always a huge mistake to think you have it all and the other person has nothing for you. it’s much wiser to recognize that every interaction is a potential trade situation, and then to gauge whether the trade is fair. learn their story, find their need or want, and ask yourself what you can offer them in exchange for them giving you something YOU want. because everybody has an ambition of some kind.
if the trade is fair, you can make a pact. if not, there’s nothing there.
it’s not that complicated.
That article did my head in a bit because for some reason I couldn’t work out exactly what he meant - maybe, the use of the word beggar (I’ve been SO close to beggary when I was younger, and those are not good memories) was too magnetic, or whatever.
I’m not sure I understood the model he presented - was he making the point that beggars bless the giver, I don’t know? Seldom have simple words on a page baffled me so much, so I kind of held back commenting because the head-jumble is undoubtedly my own!
As for spirits: I think in some ways I’m still like the kid I was when I first started talking to them - sure they sometimes have more power and knowledge, but it wouldn’t even occur to me that I don’t have the right to ask (like all children do of their family), and in contact, I’m innately good enough as I am (don’t need to worry my worldly status, looks, earning power - or magick belts, cleansing, whatever) and also I accept some might like me or want to help more than others. Some might even be a bit weird or crotchety, others will be very loving.
I can and do ramp that up to command, sometimes, but my initial feeling isn’t “us and them” and I guess it doesn’t occur to me they wouldn’t want to help, so although he’s not placing the beggar/benefactor dynamic as necessarily one-sided, it doesn’t really fit for me.
But yeah to be honest for some reason I didn’t really get what he was saying there, so my comment might be meaningless - soz! >_<
i get the feeling that frisvold got a bit of a wake-up call.
seems to me he had some type of aristocratic mentality of haves vs. have-nots, and felt sure of himself being a have.
the fact is that every one of us is both a have and a have-not.
if you meet stephen hawking, you are begging for some of his knowledge and insight. but he’s begging for your physical health.
if you meet bill gates, you are begging for his wealth and experience. but he’s begging for your company, because his fortune is tied to ideas, and you only learn from others.
if you meet a celebrity, you are begging for some of their charisma, but they are begging for your recognition and admiration.
the me vs. you mentality is very misleading. much healthier is to look for a case of possible symbiosis. we are all interconnected in subtle ways through the butterfly effect.
does a poverty case have anything to offer someone who is wealthy? yes. what? hint: TIME. there’s never enough of it. everyone only has 24 hours in the day. and any successful person knows it takes between 500 and 1000 hours a day to do great things. that is why corporations are the primary earning units of our time. each one person can only give up to 16 hours in a day. but 50 people can give 800 hours, which satisfies the need for accomplisment through teamwork.
in trade interactions, you want something from others, and they want something from you. in every case. you just have to figure out what you want, what the other party wants, and if there is a fair trade opportunity. if you can find one, you either do financial trade or some sort of barter. whether that is the human form, or spiritual form through pactworking.
and get past the arrogance of thinking of others as being beggars and you as having it all. NOBODY has it all. even the supreme creator had to create an entire universe in order to be validated.
Now that is a great way to put it!
This quote really spoke to me.
This is exactly what Im talking about. Frisvold just isnt what hes selling himself to be. Literally.
I havnt watched the article because I’m reading a movie "if you rose like a lion I could coo like a bird…if you started buying…“
However this discussion had been very insightful
"You just love my embraces…because they fit into places”
“Let’s Make Love” seems to showcase certain situations being discussed here
Reading the article now, this reminds me of my week-end out of state, where, much as I do during outings, I’m asked if I could spare a cigarette. And I do. Yet rarely do I ask for anything in return, usually they hold money they are trying to give to me. I havnt accepted quarters in years, if I had I would have enough money for a carton or two of cigarettes. And for all the cigarettes I give away this would probably be some sort of balance. I personally never accept “blessings”, I don’t repeat the same to them (In my working, I have discovered most people don’t want the “change”, it’s there to simply get a return “Bless you too”
Seems to me to be a 1, 2, 3 kind of thing most of them are doing. BAck to that I ignore their blessings, I walk away, I will make people come to me, or walk along me as I search my pockets. Cause often their intrusion is a way to divert you from certain lined up things. Perhaps even fate. I have encountered supposed “beggars” who get VERY upset because I refuse their blessing, who are upset because I don’t say “thank you” or “you too” etc.
I had to balance everything out in my out-of-town stay:
A great wind came through the only open street without a building to block it. I stopped at a light pole and used it to keep me from falling over. The wind was horrendous and I knew what it ment. That night I stayed and waited for it after purchasing a fresh pack of cigarettes. He approached, pretending it was daylight.
“Are you waiting for the bus” He said underneath everything else.
Then he began verbally attacking me. This was a “homeless person”. He threatened MY LIFE. He told me he was going MAD. He asked, “How much did you get? I got ___” and left me with a HUGE number beyond my expectations. I told him I havnt MADE A DIME. He was getting me wrong. He had no idea the people I helped with change or cigarettes, he even thought I was insulting him about this, calling him a beggar, he didn’t understand I was telling him I’m here to help anyone.
Then he got to the point, “I don’t want nothing from you unless you know where she is”
Oh, that’s what this is about. Still, he added threats, because he did not believe I was in the SAME SITUATION.
“I want an address. She’s tied in a basement somewhere.”
This interaction was based mostly in confusion. It was a horrid realization to me. Horrid in that I got all the answers I feared were true. Misplaced energy doing its finest work against fates. The tying binds of love, begged for, answers refused ignored and neglected. I was at fault for the absolute DEATH of depravity…through the genuinity being forgotten.
When I was able to escape, amazingly without using fear, but muttering just a few “ashtu malku tadat arkata” words, he turned around once more and held a knife to me. I had to tell him “I’m not even real” and walked across the street. He stopped at some steps and hung out with some other “homeless”, I leaned on another pole, handed out cigarettes, “Do you need two? Take two” And watched as the homeless person at the steps across the street eventually disappeared out of thin air, after having to express, outloud, “I know how this works, I’m not going until you go”
I look to the television, insisting on a hint to my spiritual decay. The characters are about to “Cheer” to life (A very popular trick I closely always pay attention to, being an owner of a bar previously) And I see the male character and Monroe thinking about the “Cheer”, the male then says something either in a foreign language or complete gibberish and then she says, “is that it? I think the Chinese is longer” and then he says something about “its whatever noisy home” I Don’t understand and able to comepletely escape any sort of hold I was stuck in before trying the “Rewind” button, and ultimately get a fresh start. Because I’m not a drinker anymore.
this movie is amazing, he’s able to control an elevator and even TALK through it.
Amazing I have deterred again.
The reason I wanted to put something here was because HJo’s post reminded me of my children before I abandoned them. Before I ended my family with a horrible divorce, I felt I needed to explain to my almost 5 year old son about “death”. I have no idea why this came to me at that moment, it was something that was VERY pushy, and I talked to my son. He had never asked or mentioned such things. He listened while looking at something else. The most I explained to was that I was not going to be around forever, maybe sooner than later. He then looked at me and said, “It’s OK. You’re going to have 8 arms and its going to be super awesome” I did not respond and the conversation was over. He is absolutely right. I hate to use the word “Abandon” and “Children” together, but it is true and has led to a very bad place for me to see. I don’t know about any resolution to it either. However, for my own ego’s sake, I have to remind myself of the woman on the bus, who gave ME $10 because I was good with my kids, despite my wife getting upset at me and not agreeing, that I threaten my children because of their bad behavior in a stern way. At the same time I have told other people to “screw off” because of their snooty attitudes about how a parent is neglectful of their children “just being children” so, I’m right, she’s wrong, I’m poor, she’s home" Except, like the man on the street told me, the freemasons got her
i wouldn’t go that far. i just think he’s making it more complicated than it really is.
No its not just making it complicated. Hes not legi in his ATR work either. Period. Its actually pretty well known in most ATR sects Ive come across. People debating about it online who are outsiders with no real experience in those currents just cant seem to accept it when authors get called on bullshit. But maybe Im wrong and Dante Abiel is also a dark adept in vodou
i can’t speak on that. i’m not initiated into any type of atr so i have to leave that issue alone.
Please excuse me if I came across as rude there, not my intention at all. I just kind of always see these authors popping up on discussion and everyone debating about the legitimacy of certain houses or people, etc. I tell you that in sincerity so hopefully you wont spend absurd amounts on readi.gs from people lie that posing online. They see that there is an interest in these currents and most of western society doesnt have access to them so they capitalize on sincere seekers. It would take writi.g a bookto explain but all the stuff Dante or Koetting talk about in their books as being “voudon” or Frisvolds version of “Quimbanda” are just not the real thing. Thats not to say they dont work now. I know La Couleuvre Noir is not even remotely what would be considered authentic Vodun but they have valuable teachings and work and they are a group I still respect regardless of my mentors perspectives. At the end of the day I guess its just what you want.
Basically what Lady Eva said. I have no idea what he was going on about. If there was a point in there, I totally missed it.
i can only guess that frisvold is confronting the reality of tzedakah, but he doesn’t recognize it because he’s not jewish.
tzedakah is alms-giving. in the middle east and in africa, alms are not an act of benevolence by the rich to the poor. they are not something you do to show what a swell guy you are now that you’re livin phat. they are a DUTY. and they are so much of a duty, that you are obligated to find something to give to those who have need of them, even if you are a spiritual beggar yourself, (which in fact all of us are).
frisvold’s quimbanda is very judeochristian. i can’t say if his atr is african or brazilian in any way, but i can tell you that his vision of quimbanda is jewish-derived because he incorporates the grimoirium verum. so at some level, his work is jewish and probably kabbalist.
if you’re going to do things the jewish way, you’re going to have to know something about jewish custom. there are principles that are deeper than just the magick and are required for it to work, or at the very least you will run across those principles in a practical way at some point. that’s just the way it is. and it seems to me that frisvold came across the principle of tzedaqah, but didn’t recognize it because it is not a european idea. frisvold is german. in germany, alms are not a requirement and peasants and vagabonds are considered subhuman, closer to garbage than humanity. however, kabbalism has a different view.
maybe the spirits are trying to teach him something and he’s not learning because he thinks he’s the teacher. you run into these types of situations in spirituality from time to time.
human pride can get in the way…
it is what it is shrugs