Creating the Best Magickal Results

This stems from an earlier conversational topic here.

I so much appreciate the opportunities to research, study, and connect with similarly minded people on this forum. The internet has provided a wide field for sharing experiences and broadening my horizons. Many thanks, Lady Eva for those links in the earlier topic.

I commented in the above recent post that my opinion was that having certain knowledge in the realm of occult a good thing and in my paradigm, I conceptualize it as providing powertools to children.

Children, being those who simply lack the fundamental strength, discipline, knowledge, and ethics to properly operate those tools. In legal terms children are likened to the insane and slaves and considered incompetent to handle themselves; they must be cared for, nurtured, protected/shielded (often treated with compassion)…but are not self-governing in any way.

They lack negotiating skills, so they lie; they don’t understand their motives, cannot make proper long-term decisions, so they hurt themselves and others; they don’t know how to compile information, they absorb it all; they don’t know how to sort information, they throw out good and hold onto useless; they don’t know how to express their knowledge or desires and be understood properly, so request the wrong things, and create badly; they regularly experience massive emotional upheaval and base decision-making off of faulty thought and emotion rather than logic and reason.

This is why it has been/is generally acceptable to lie to slaves, children, the insane (mentally incompetent); they cannot handle the truth; they do not in actuality want the truth.

Maybe, my vessel is more cynical, but I don’t know about commercial slavery being a totally unchosen thing for an adult human despite conditioning. I’ve very limited experience with life after all, not even half a century’s worth, in fact. There is a colossal amount to learn.

But, it certainly seems to me that those who decide that they can handle the truth, or rather that they WILL handle the truth whatever it is, that they see through the lies, do begin to search it out on an individual basis and in a very painful manner. I suppose, that because I see life as pain to greater or lesser degrees, and see human reactions and interactions as either more or less adept ways of mitigating it, I’ve assumed that painfully striving, seeking, digging is the best way to learn. Perhaps I’m incorrect; maybe it only the best way for my vessel to learn at this particular time/space.

This is the delightful essay referenced by Lady Eva and written by Timothy:

REVOLUTION: The Ascent Of Magick, And Death Of Occultism

Practice, not Intellect

I find this an interesting concept, and likely I am misunderstanding the fullness of thought here.

As someone who has both taught and performed music for years, I’ll use this as my example. An individual desires to learn to play the violin because he’s heard the fabulous sounds it makes, seen the reception received by the public when a performance goes over gloriously, felt some sort of connection/’rightness’ when lifting the instrument and placing bow to strings, desires to emulate, increase capacity, and use the instrument to change himself into someone better or different; rather than John Down the Street, he will be John, The Violinist Down the Street, or John, That World-Famous Violinist Down the Street (or John Who Plays for His Own Personal Satisfaction and Fuck the Rest of the Word).

So, how does John get there? Can he do it without increasing his intellect? Can he do it without using his intellect? Can he get very far on his road at all with a limited intellectual capacity?

Basing my opinions, of course, on my experience, I have simply not observed that practice continues, that practice improves, that skills are increased and practice refined, etc. devoid of an intellect directed precisely and accurately, an intellect targeted toward a goal, a mind driven ruthlessly at times, compassionately at times, but driven to increase and expand, to grow.

There are the rare individuals who through a greater connection with the subconscious, collective unconscious, divine, or past life experience, or inborn neural processes, could pick up a violin and begin playing to a degree, as there are individuals (virtuosos) who can do similar in nearly every field.

But, using and expanding the intellect is a thing that humans must do to improve. Apart from this, there is no practice, because there is no observable increase and without this, there is no attention granted because when a thing is practiced with rapt attention, a relationship develops between the operator and the operant. A Law/Contract/Relationship is created based on the intellectual, rational, and emotional, and physical pursuit of a goal.

No matter how much I adore violin playing, and pick up my bow, what if I cannot read music, and choose not to learn, because I decide that it doesn’t matter to my playing? Well, does it? What are my goals with my playing, then? What if I learn nothing about the fundamentals of violin creation; why it was designed as it was, the function of the neck, box, bow, strings? What if I never understand WHY I should tighten the strings sometimes, and never grasp why they occasionally break? What if I want to make the best music possible and so sit for hours hunched over, tightly grasping the instrument sawing at the strings, without ever reading about proper posture before ingraining a damaging practice into my vessel?

So, with magick? What if I never learn the basics of any natural sciences and choose to use what is stated to be another natural process? What if I have no idea what fundamental rules govern the universe and want to use another tool/process governed by those same rules? Is pure experimentation without increasing the intellect, using the intellect, having a focused and driven intellect even a possibility?

Optimization of Magickal Techniques
How would an individual optimize, then without the intellectual capacity to grasp the threads of what is attempting to be accomplished, that is, all of the ‘whys,’ all of the motives (motive: cause of motion) to understand the true direction of the psyche with precision and accuracy?

What if an individual wants the best method to curse another who has caused offense? Should the individual simply find a strong curse and begin practicing? Or should the person begin with stripping down intellectually what about the offense was painful? What was the act committed, why was it allowed to offend, was the level of offense taken appropriate, is there an overblown emotional response apart from ration/logic/thought that should/could be released or used, and if so, how?

All those thought processes are intellectual. What happens when an individual has unacknowledged guilt, or totally misunderstood the supposed douchebag’s intent in the first place…and then throws what could have been a powerful curse, but instead misfires, backfires, or simply fizzles out?

I’ve read many many posts on this forum from very disappointed people whose magick simply won’t work or won’t work properly; they throw up a poorly drawn picture of their issue and expect feedback solving the problem…MAGICK! Then, again, this could simply be symptomatic of learned helplessness. It seems like perhaps I assume that it’s a given that we unlearn this on our own painfully as adolescents and adults… when maybe the better answer is learning from day one as children that helplessness is undesirable and how to avoid it, becoming powerful adults.

The first demon I contacted was Lucifer. Desirous of the best results possible, I researched. I began with the areas most familiar to me (in my case scripture), took all the notes I could and expanded from there, reading about his history, his supposed preferences, his constituents, his mannerisms, his philosophies, his acts, etc., etc., etc. Then when meeting him, I asked questions (“Do you really prefer xxx?”), observed behavior, paid attention, and decided how to continue my relationship based on my research and experiential assessment.

When I go to court, I do similar; research the court system, the judges, the attorneys, prosecutor, every name available through the internet, or public interface at my disposal, and I use them all. Then, I ask questions, observe minutia, take notes, and predict where the conversation/relationship/pact/law is going.

In the creation of a contractual relationship with anyone, it is vital to understand that person/entity/being to the greatest degree. Imagine the power one wields in court if he is aware that the person to whom he speaks had 3 children, knows the ages, knows how long the judge has been married, knows his previous judgements, educational background, what he thinks/feels about divorces and child custody, if going into court with a case related? Imagine knowing intimately the facilitator of the relationship. What if I know how the strings on my violin are designed in accordance with the bow tension, so can create the optimal pitches at the optimal volume without breakage during performance?

What if, in court, I am able to congratulate the judge on his newly born child? What if I am able to direct the current of my working with immaculate precision because through study, I made bioscience a part of my healing practice in addition to reiki? Would that yield a better relationship, because more attention and comprehension (both vital facets of love) has been put into it?

Scientific Method

How could one increase, expand, and improve upon their practice with targeted use of scientific method? That involves observation, (often meticulous note-taking,) forming of hypotheses and prediction, double-blind or otherwise measurable testing, modification, expansion on acquired results, more observation, etc. Scientific method is how we use the intellect to navigate the world rationally for the best long-term results rather than poorly designed/thought short-term results.

I see validity behind a university disallowing a student to take Chemistry 400 without the necessary Biology 101, Geology 200, etc., prerequisites. Is it elitist? Fuck yes, it is. But, I can comprehend its rational elitism (as opposed to monetary).

A student demonstrates ability and desire, and is granted the privilege of intellectual advancement. A child shows a parent that he is willing to put in the study and hours of practice, because he has created an emotional/intellectual/physical contractual relationship; he loves to play and is kicking ass… and the parent facilitates basketball lessons because a rational/logical prediction is that the child will continue with growth in that area and money/time is not being flushed down the toilet.

A child shows further that he is desirous of growth in that area, and the parent can choose to use greater means to facilitate that relationship.

It’s likely I’ll change my mind given enough counter experiences, but so far… the most mind-blowingly useful knowledge I’ve experienced has been while out of my vessel, and upon re-entry, it has been a devastating experience having either to leave the majority of knowledge behind because my Gwendolyn-mind simply couldn’t compass it, or to have it twisted about horribly as my exquisitely limited Gwendolyn-mind attempted to assimilate it.

In my paradigm, working with demons is using my own vessel to facilitate a relationship/contract/law for a protracted and highly desired goal (or even to experimentally manifest freely a gorgeously lovely trench coat that is perfect in every way). And because my vessel happens to be inadequate to the task at hand, it behooves me to use its intellectual capacity to its fullest, AND increase it to have the best results.

My vessel’s intellectual development allows/permits/facilitates my vessel’s practical development (also why I study molecular biology, nutrition, etc.). Every evocation convergence with Lucifer has pointed me in the direction of knowledge acquisition to better understand what I am doing/requesting/contracting.

Every interaction with the natural world that is important to comprehend stands out inexplicably and when I explore as prompted (rather than assuming I’m just another schizophrenic nut seeing weird patterns invisible to everyone else), I discover a connection with a pact/relationship that is vital to its completion in an efficient and timely manner. My vessel is my facilitator with every contractual relationship, that is: my vessel is my Judge of my entire corporeal experience. (There are so many splendid scriptures about judging and the human vessel’s crap job of doing so).

And the more effort I put into the pact, or conversation with the entity the more willing to assist, the entity becomes. Rather like Belial going from mocking at every interaction I initiate, to mockingly helpful at every interaction I initiate, to himself initiating mockingly helpful interactions (my Gwendolyn vessel can behave as a rather whiny entitled brat, hence all the mocking).

My overarching goals are not simply navigation after all. They are full systemic comprehension so that circumnavigation is readily possible. I want to know the laws/relationships, so that I can update/modify/renegotiate them at will for the ultimately best results, which through intellectual and perceptual development will also change; best results today, perceived as a drop in the bucket of achievable results tomorrow. The better my vessel operates intellectually, spiritually, physically, emotionally, etc…well, the better I can align myself with a higher, lower, or different kind of power, be it demonic, angelic, christic, ancestral, elemental, necromantic, etc.

I think intellect is vital. Because without a vocabulary to comprehend myself, to conceptualize my desires, to see flaws in my reasoning, to express what I want to my constituents, I attain absolute horse shit; and that doesn’t mean ‘nothing;’ it means awful hideous perfect results that were unforeseen and unprepared for; the most painful and /or humiliating kinds of learning experiences.

It seems to me that the art of magick must be approached as science and of the intellect before it can be powerfully approached as art. Probably some correlation here to the witches’ pyramid, or elemental balance, or ten thousand hours etc., but I’m disinclined to delve into those angles.

This relates in large part to why I think Latin is so powerful in ritual (as well as a few other ancient languages). Naturally, this could be only my perspective as we, each of us, are totally unique vessels. Hence Azazel’s snappy rejoinder to E.A.s inquiry about the demonic hierarchy regarding only the operator and everything else in existence, another delightfully enlightening audio, for which I am grateful.

Nerd rant complete. Off to feed Gwendolyn vessel more probiotic organic dark chocolate.

1 Like

[quote=“Gwendolyn, post:1, topic:6281”]I commented in the above recent post that my opinion was that having certain knowledge in the realm of occult a good thing and in my paradigm, I conceptualize it as providing powertools to children.

Children, being those who simply lack the fundamental strength, discipline, knowledge, and ethics to properly operate those tools. In legal terms children are likened to the insane and slaves and considered incompetent to handle themselves; they must be cared for, nurtured, protected/shielded (often treated with compassion)…but are not self-governing in any way.[/quote]

My immediate thought here is that you’re grouping children, mentally ill people, and slaves all together, and that this is fundamentally incorrect.

Slavery is a human creation, and is optional - some societies (usually pre-agricultural) have existed without any slavery whatsoever.

Someone has to make you a slave, in other words - it doesn’t just happen.

Mental illness on the other hand seems endemic in human society, whether through organic causes or psychological trauma.

And childhood’s an unavoidable stage we all go through.

I therefore don’t think it’s legit to group them all together, and in so doing to imply that some are “natural born slaves” since slavery is a man-made concept.

And it’s one which, going by everything from the Servile Wars in Rome, to the abolitionist movement against the African slave trade, and the ongoing modern day battles against human trafficking, is usually only held in place through extreme brutality and deception, via pseudo-science, fraud, and superstition - usually deployed against the constant opposition slavery meets from both slaves and those who wish to see them freed.

This is why it has been/is generally acceptable to lie to slaves, children, the insane (mentally incompetent); they cannot handle the truth; they do not in actuality want the truth.

200 years ago a black American reading this stood a reasonable chance of having been born into slavery.

The main thing that qualified that person for slavery was the colour of their skin.

Today, that same black American reading this was born free.

So is it okay to lie to slaves, when the things that make someone a slave are so completely arbitrary?

Is a slave anything other than a person who happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Lies are actually self-serving tools used by the beneficiaries to perpetuate slavery, whether it was the vile pseudoscience of the past that stated people of African descent were childlike, best fitted as beasts of burden under the patriarchal “care” of white masters, or the modern day lies about the great jobs available that draw women from eastern Europe and Africa etc. into the hands of traffickers, who trade them into short and brutal lives in brothels.

And actually, as someone who’s had several diagnoses of mental illness in the past, major depression to be specific, I don’t even think it’s “acceptable” to lie to people with mental health problems either, and I feel most strongly that the society I was raised in, which had these kinds of classifications of worthy and unworthy people and which celebrated powerlessness, was the major cause of my mental health problems, which dissipated rapidly when I embraced a Left-Hand Path philosophy.

Read the memoirs of anyone who’s battled mental health problems - Marya Hornbacher is a good start - to see how the hypocrisy and condescension of medics towards mentally ill person can be clinically damaging to the patient, and undermines any effective treatments that might be on offer.

Lying to children? Maybe if you tell an inconsolable child their lost teddy has gone to Teddyland to be with his friends, that’s okay, but lying to a child is more usually about the adult being unable to describe something difficult (like sex, death, or war) in an age-appropriate way, so they spare themselves the discomfort by lying.

So it’s about what’s best for the adult, not the child, and sometimes that takes s sinister turn when the adult is doing things they shouldn’t, and lies to the child about the consequences if the child tells someone else.

Even the most benevolent lies are eventually found out, and reactions range from gentle mockery to a feeling of complete betrayal, depending on the scale of the lie - which is almost always proportional to the difficulty it spared some self-serving adult.

Maybe, my vessel is more cynical, but I don’t know about commercial slavery being a totally unchosen thing for an adult human despite conditioning. I’ve very limited experience with life after all, not even half a century’s worth, in fact. There is a colossal amount to learn.

Books and the written word mean we don’t have to experience everything personally.

Based on what i’ve read, heard, and seen, I’m pretty sure the thousands of women tricked or kidnapped and then trafficked into slavery each year would have a different opinion…

But, it certainly seems to me that those who decide that they can handle the truth, or rather that they WILL handle the truth whatever it is, that they see through the lies, do begin to search it out on an individual basis and in a very painful manner.

More painful though when inquisitions and heresy trials exist to burn, torture or imprison anyone who questions the lockdown of the dominant faith.

Basing my opinions, of course, on my experience, I have simply not observed that practice continues, that practice improves, that skills are increased and practice refined, etc. devoid of an intellect directed precisely and accurately, an intellect targeted toward a goal, a mind driven ruthlessly at times, compassionately at times, but driven to increase and expand, to grow.

People have to be aware that the goal exists - someone who’s never held a violin or heard music can’t have that goal.

This was the situation with regards to magick under the Christian church until very recently, and remains the situation in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim nations - elsewhere as well, of course.

What if an individual wants the best method to curse another who has caused offense? Should the individual simply find a strong curse and begin practicing? Or should the person begin with stripping down intellectually what about the offense was painful? What was the act committed, why was it allowed to offend, was the level of offense taken appropriate, is there an overblown emotional response apart from ration/logic/thought that should/could be released or used, and if so, how?

All those thought processes are intellectual. What happens when an individual has unacknowledged guilt, or totally misunderstood the supposed douchebag’s intent in the first place…and then throws what could have been a powerful curse, but instead misfires, backfires, or simply fizzles out?

On here, they’d get proposals to trouble-shoot that - most of which, going by posting trends here since before I joined, will suggest at least some self-examination and psychological work on motives, beliefs, etc.

I see validity behind a university disallowing a student to take Chemistry 400 without the necessary Biology 101, Geology 200, etc., prerequisites. Is it elitist? Fuck yes, it is. But, I can comprehend its rational elitism (as opposed to monetary).

It’s only irrationally elitist if someone randomly decides who can or cannot take Biology 101 based on arbitrary things such as the date the person was born, their location, or how much pigment they have in their skin.

My original point was that to say people can choose to be slaves when they’re born into slave-creating situations that validate their slavery is incorrect.

My vessel’s intellectual development allows/permits/facilitates my vessel’s practical development (also why I study molecular biology, nutrition, etc.). Every evocation convergence with Lucifer has pointed me in the direction of knowledge acquisition to better understand what I am doing/requesting/contracting.

I have no argument with knowledge aquisition, as I’m sure is evident from my many posts about various sciences, so this is presumably not addressed to the points I made in my previous post.

Luckily for me I was born into a generation where knowledge is readily available, regardless of my sex, class, or ability to pay for a higher education, and no longer kept secret - raised with that expectation, the learned-helplessness of previous generations who revered doctors as all-knowing and therefore didn’t believe themselves capable of understanding the sciences is, well, long gone… :slight_smile:

This relates in large part to why I think [url=http://becomealivinggod.com/forum/new-magician-help/latin/msg69212/#msg69212] Latin [/url] is so powerful in ritual (as well as a few other ancient languages).

That was an excellent post and probably inspired me more than 6 years of teaching by bored public servants - if I didn’t reply to that effect on the thread, that was an oversight, but I’m saying it now. :slight_smile:

Should magic be approached as a science or an art form?

I personally think both from the point of view of individual progress, and as a whole. I initially began through the ideas of others and followed their guidance until I began to start experimenting and creating my own practices and ritual compositions. I think the true nature of magical practice allows both mentalities (left/right mind hemispheres) to interact both separately and combined to produce an effect. So from my experience, I think any art initially demands a ‘set of rules’ or a solid foundation of general concepts to instigate its nature. This will allow it to progress from a structure into whatever, or even wherever the individual wishes to take it.

This can clearly be seen watching musicians improvise (Gwen). This could never happen without a solid foundation of musical knowledge, the structure of harmony and melody etc.

Contradictory however to the above, you could also have no experience, no help or guidance but just a strong desire to make ‘change’ occur and through your own raw creativity, an answer could manifest. Flamboyant art without any foundation can certainly produce synchronicity to happen, which of cause is a direct reflection of the nature in which it was initially prompted. We can therefore extract meaning or other ideas from the initial chaos of our raw creativity. This however will/can evolve into more learning from these ideas and structure itself (intellectual analysis / science). So one aspect of thought can invoke the other and vice versa…raw unguided art can form law and order, and the restraints of logical thinking or science, can prompt the mind to wonder and create further. This entire concept is a bit like the chicken and the egg?

Is there more advantage in progressive learning, or is ignorance (albeit to a degree) bliss?

Well each will have its pros and cons. Imagine starting something new without no experience. Many will appreciate help and guidance here as it will give the mind a foundation to base its communication on, or interaction with the situation. This however could also become a hindrance as expectations are now formed, and doubts at the same time concerning your ability to succeed. Whereas, if you had no knowledge of the situation and therefore no expectations, then you may perform in a more articulate manner which allows a better result to occur? The same situation can happen when we are presented with a problem, if we simply react to this through initiative and emotional response (creativity), then we can produce the correct result as we are communicating subconsciously, but if we stand there and think about it instead (rational thought/intellectualism), then we can fuck up in such extreme ways, we look ridiculous. Many people in my opinion think too much and when it’s time to truly think, they don’t think at all!

I think the situation itself will decide which is the best option here without us interfering in the process…to think or just act?

Should we continue to learn intellectually about our goals, or our chosen magical path?

I think the mind could/will naturally prompt us to do this through our emotional involvement within the situation. This once again is the right hand side of the mind prompting the other side to activate as a means of understanding to allow progress. You simply cannot have science without creativity, or vice versa.

On the contrary here, I think learning and holding onto knowledge without using it is useless. Your results in your magical practices will guide your overall necessity to learn further, or be content with what you have. A journey for me always starts at the end, not at the beginning so I need to know exactly what I want and when this happens then I don’t see the point in anymore further learning.

Success is very much about learning and making changes. It is almost Cybernetic as you simply cannot have one without the other two components to succeed (machine like). So progress is not a blueprint of initial code for continuous learning, it has to be assessed through the results we get and therefore we will know when to stop, which of cause is based on our initial outcome…A journey always starts at the end.

Comments inline in italics. Because like italics, appealing appearance.

[quote=“Lady Eva, post:2, topic:6281”][quote=“Gwendolyn, post:1, topic:6281”]I commented in the above recent post that my opinion was that having certain knowledge in the realm of occult a good thing and in my paradigm, I conceptualize it as providing powertools to children.

Children, being those who simply lack the fundamental strength, discipline, knowledge, and ethics to properly operate those tools. In legal terms children are likened to the insane and slaves and considered incompetent to handle themselves; they must be cared for, nurtured, protected/shielded (often treated with compassion)…but are not self-governing in any way.[/quote]

My immediate thought here is that you’re grouping children, mentally ill people, and slaves all together, and that this is fundamentally incorrect.

I am speaking in a purely legal sense here. Not our spiritual/personal ethical stance.

Slavery is a human creation, and is optional - some societies (usually pre-agricultural) have existed without any slavery whatsoever.

Someone has to make you a slave, in other words - it doesn’t just happen.

I don’t know about that. There seem to be those who through laziness, personality, or other reasons prefer to be reinserted into the Matrix. Those who want a master, want to be dominated, rather than a partner, or colleague, so seek one out. Rather a need/requirement/preference to submit to someone worthy of themself at whatever level of esteem held for self.

Mental illness on the other hand seems endemic in human society, whether through organic causes or psychological trauma.

And childhood’s an unavoidable stage we all go through.

I therefore don’t think it’s legit to group them all together, and in so doing to imply that some are “natural born slaves” since slavery is a man-made concept.

And yet, they still are grouped for many; dealing in human cargo is often acceptable to both slaves and masters, no matter how sickening, ugly and appalling it is to the freedom-seeking. Commercial debt (ownership of the human vessel by a public corporate entity) is the most common form of slavery in the developed world. While in the undeveloped world, it human vessels are owned by private corporate entities.

And it’s one which, going by everything from the Servile Wars in Rome, to the abolitionist movement against the African slave trade, and the ongoing modern day battles against human trafficking, is usually only held in place through extreme brutality and deception, via pseudo-science, fraud, and superstition - usually deployed against the constant opposition slavery meets from both slaves and those who wish to see them freed.

Freed in a sense; generally only lightening of the burden as a “freed” slave is immediately required to become a corporate slave (human resource) by registering for citizenship with the incorporated and bankrupt entity governing the land on which the briefly former slave resides.

This is why it has been/is generally acceptable to lie to slaves, children, the insane (mentally incompetent); they cannot handle the truth; they do not in actuality want the truth.

200 years ago a black American reading this stood a reasonable chance of having been born into slavery.

The main thing that qualified that person for slavery was the colour of their skin.

Today, that same black American reading this was born free.

Born free, hell yes! And then parents submitted a birth registration to the state and handed jurisdiction of their child to the indebted incorporated governing body bearing a country name. And suddenly the child is a human resource fraudulently held responsible for unearned, unmerited debt upon reaching majority.

So is it okay to lie to slaves, when the things that make someone a slave are so completely arbitrary?

Is a slave anything other than a person who happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Lies are actually self-serving tools used by the beneficiaries to perpetuate slavery, whether it was the vile pseudoscience of the past that stated people of African descent were childlike, best fitted as beasts of burden under the patriarchal “care” of white masters, or the modern day lies about the great jobs available that draw women from eastern Europe and Africa etc. into the hands of traffickers, who trade them into short and brutal lives in brothels.

And actually, as someone who’s had several diagnoses of mental illness in the past, major depression to be specific, I don’t even think it’s “acceptable” to lie to people with mental health problems either, and I feel most strongly that the society I was raised in, which had these kinds of classifications of worthy and unworthy people and which celebrated powerlessness, was the major cause of my mental health problems, which dissipated rapidly when I embraced a Left-Hand Path philosophy.

I too, find it reprehensible. Sometimes. I think it depends entirely on the contractual consensual relationship. In other words… No one may lie to me. I, however, may lie at my discretion. No one may lie to reach other unless I benefit or decide that the lie is of benefit to the other vessel(s). Judicious lies, as only I facilitate/judge/mitigate my vessel’s interactions with the outside world.

Read the memoirs of anyone who’s battled mental health problems - Marya Hornbacher is a good start - to see how the hypocrisy and condescension of medics towards mentally ill person can be clinically damaging to the patient, and undermines any effective treatments that might be on offer.

Poorly contrived contractual relationships based not on compassion, consent, full disclosure, nor love, nor long-term gain for all parties.

Lying to children? Maybe if you tell an inconsolable child their lost teddy has gone to Teddyland to be with his friends, that’s okay, but lying to a child is more usually about the adult being unable to describe something difficult (like sex, death, or war) in an age-appropriate way, so they spare themselves the discomfort by lying.

So it’s about what’s best for the adult, not the child, and sometimes that takes s sinister turn when the adult is doing things they shouldn’t, and lies to the child about the consequences if the child tells someone else.

All excellent examples of injudicious, poor facilitation of relationship/contract/law. Except the teddy bear; that is a damned good lie if the child is not consoled by the truth. Asking the child if they prefer a lie in such situations after providing full disclosure, is a decent thing to do, provided it’s consentual.

Even the most benevolent lies are eventually found out, and reactions range from gentle mockery to a feeling of complete betrayal, depending on the scale of the lie - which is almost always proportional to the difficulty it spared some self-serving adult.

Not scale of lie, rather health of relationship. Loving and compassionate gracious contract with mutual trust and consent, or short-sighted, poorly facilitated human interaction.

Maybe, my vessel is more cynical, but I don’t know about commercial slavery being a totally unchosen thing for an adult human despite conditioning. I’ve very limited experience with life after all, not even half a century’s worth, in fact. There is a colossal amount to learn.

Books and the written word mean we don’t have to experience everything personally.

Based on what i’ve read, heard, and seen, I’m pretty sure the thousands of women tricked or kidnapped and then trafficked into slavery each year would have a different opinion…

Anyone aware of their oppression and objecting to it, non-consensual relationship, yes, again, reprehensible atrocity.

But, the unaware, or the unwilling-to-be/remain-aware… would either have no opinion or defend the status quo. The ones who fought hardest against women’s suffrage…were women because custom is often stronger than law. Doesn’t mean it’s unchangeable, just requires more energy from the human vessels.

We can allow our minds to do many fascinating things to cope. Stockholm syndrome is a choice made to avoid cognitive suffering. I chose my thoughts, they directly control my hormone release. I used self-hypnosis, demons, angels, etc., personally analyzed and chosen chemicals for two years, and dragged my stubborn vessel out of unipolar depression and c-PTSD. Erased the undesired schizophrenia traits the same way. Now, can leave my home without terror. Horrible agonizing process, but… Wanted faster, more permanent results than a shrink could offer. Is still strange speaking and making eye-contact.

But, it certainly seems to me that those who decide that they can handle the truth, or rather that they WILL handle the truth whatever it is, that they see through the lies, do begin to search it out on an individual basis and in a very painful manner.

More painful though when inquisitions and heresy trials exist to burn, torture or imprison anyone who questions the lockdown of the dominant faith.

And far more lethal… Better to keep 'em alive and merely tax the hell out of them. Smarter. Civilized slavery is definitely the correct direction. It IS good that humanity has capacity to evolve.

Basing my opinions, of course, on my experience, I have simply not observed that practice continues, that practice improves, that skills are increased and practice refined, etc. devoid of an intellect directed precisely and accurately, an intellect targeted toward a goal, a mind driven ruthlessly at times, compassionately at times, but driven to increase and expand, to grow.

People have to be aware that the goal exists - someone who’s never held a violin or heard music can’t have that goal.

This was the situation with regards to magick under the Christian church until very recently, and remains the situation in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim nations - elsewhere as well, of course.

Always the conundrum, …then, as with printing press, new technology allows massive cognitive leaps/alterations/progress. Death. Tower.

What if an individual wants the best method to curse another who has caused offense? Should the individual simply find a strong curse and begin practicing? Or should the person begin with stripping down intellectually what about the offense was painful? What was the act committed, why was it allowed to offend, was the level of offense taken appropriate, is there an overblown emotional response apart from ration/logic/thought that should/could be released or used, and if so, how?

All those thought processes are intellectual. What happens when an individual has unacknowledged guilt, or totally misunderstood the supposed douchebag’s intent in the first place…and then throws what could have been a powerful curse, but instead misfires, backfires, or simply fizzles out?

On here, they’d get proposals to trouble-shoot that - most of which, going by posting trends here since before I joined, will suggest at least some self-examination and psychological work on motives, beliefs, etc.

Is why I enjoy it here, those ones who advocate a second look, a paradigm shift rather than an emotional reaction based on insufficient data.

I see validity behind a university disallowing a student to take Chemistry 400 without the necessary Biology 101, Geology 200, etc., prerequisites. Is it elitist? Fuck yes, it is. But, I can comprehend its rational elitism (as opposed to monetary).

It’s only irrationally elitist if someone randomly decides who can or cannot take Biology 101 based on arbitrary things such as the date the person was born, their location, or how much pigment they have in their skin.

My original point was that to say people can choose to be slaves when they’re born into slave-creating situations that validate their slavery is incorrect.

Entiendo. :slight_smile:

My vessel’s intellectual development allows/permits/facilitates my vessel’s practical development (also why I study molecular biology, nutrition, etc.). Every evocation convergence with Lucifer has pointed me in the direction of knowledge acquisition to better understand what I am doing/requesting/contracting.

I have no argument with knowledge aquisition, as I’m sure is evident from my many posts about various sciences, so this is presumably not addressed to the points I made in my previous post.

Luckily for me I was born into a generation where knowledge is readily available, regardless of my sex, class, or ability to pay for a higher education, and no longer kept secret - raised with that expectation, the learned-helplessness of previous generations who revered doctors as all-knowing and therefore didn’t believe themselves capable of understanding the sciences is, well, long gone… :slight_smile:

This relates in large part to why I think [url=http://becomealivinggod.com/forum/new-magician-help/latin/msg69212/#msg69212] Latin [/url] is so powerful in ritual (as well as a few other ancient languages).

That was an excellent post and probably inspired me more than 6 years of teaching by bored public servants - if I didn’t reply to that effect on the thread, that was an oversight, but I’m saying it now. :)[/quote]

And THANK You, Lady Eva. Goddamn, I was rather unclear in expressing the idea initially. Is why we all need to learn fucking Latin.

Savodonger,

I enjoy maxim of law: Remove foundation and the work falls. Foundation based on rules until systemic comprehension, then improv possible. Better the foundation, better the improv.

And then, there’s the beauty that can arise from sheer chaos, but it requires an observer to recognize and nurture it. Else, it devolves back into chaos, unnoticed, unappreciated. Requires attention of human vessel(s).

We return home and discover why we left. Interesting thought. We now require organic dark chocolate to further power this vessel.

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Not to nitpick, but it’s illegal to own a slave in the UK, and most other civilised countries, so perhaps you intended some other word for legal?

Either way it’s surely undeniable that slavery is a created thing, whereas childhood is natural to all of us, and mental illness can be an organic process with no human cause?

I don't know about that. There seem to be those who through laziness, personality, or other reasons prefer to be reinserted into the Matrix. Those who want a master, want to be dominated, rather than a partner, or colleague, so seek one out. Rather a need/requirement/preference to submit to someone worthy of themself at whatever level of esteem held for self.

In a society that fosters that, how can it be a free-will choice - you didn’t have the choice aged 5 to speak Swahili, you spoke whatever language your parents or guardians did, and therefore think in that language as well - but look at the stunning effects being bilingual has on the brain: http://www.hanen.org/Helpful-Info/Articles/Bilingualism-in-Young-Children–Separating-Fact-fr.aspx

The programming goes deeper and starts younger than language, so it’s fair to say the shaping effect on actual phsyical structures is as profound.

Freed in a sense; generally only lightening of the burden as a "freed" slave is immediately required to become a corporate slave (human resource) by registering for citizenship with the incorporated and bankrupt entity governing the land on which the briefly former slave resides.

True for most people, but with respect, surely that’s irrelevant to your point that it’s acceptable for people with a high level of spiritual knowledge to lie to “slaves”?

I would say it’s our job to tell the truth and seek spiritual freedom, and to make it clear to other people that it’s a possibility as well. JMO and it may just be an “agree to disagree” issue at heart.

I too, find it reprehensible. Sometimes. I think it depends entirely on the contractual consensual relationship. In other words... No one may lie to me. I, however, may lie at my discretion. No one may lie to reach other unless I benefit or decide that the lie is of benefit to the other vessel(s). Judicious lies, as only I facilitate/judge/mitigate my vessel's interactions with the outside world.

I don’t understand “No one may lie to reach other unless I benefit or decide that the lie is of benefit to the other vessel(s).”?

Are you saying you’re god? I don’t mean that in a snarky way (be rather redundant on here), I’m just curious if you believe that.

I chose my thoughts, they directly control my hormone release. I used self-hypnosis, demons, angels, etc., personally analyzed and chosen chemicals for two years, and dragged my stubborn vessel out of unipolar depression and c-PTSD. Erased the undesired schizophrenia traits the same way. Now, can leave my home without terror. Horrible agonizing process, but... Wanted faster, more permanent results than a shrink could offer. Is still strange speaking and making eye-contact.

Nice work! :slight_smile:

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