Okay, so I started a YouTube channel since I got such a good reception on the test video, so I will be posting them here. Though since there is only one two part video up at the moment here is my channel link. I hope you enjoy, and feel free to comment either here or there with anything you like.
So, can we (repsectfully and forum rules etc) debate you on this?
If so, my question is, do you think if any political org used a thing, anything associated with them is forever tainted?
Because the gods of the heathens were all very much based on not just political, but actually (with respect for your thingy) capitalist goals, of raiding neighbouring tribes and selling them into slavery. For power, influence, and profit, and with no lower age limit or contract on what those captive souls were used for.
Not to mention the pentagram and its association with the brutal murders and genocides of the bolsheviks?
Oh yeah. I have no problem with a legitimate debate as long as it doesn’t devolve into mudslinging.
But it depends really. Some things can not be salvaged. Thats why I used the swaztika as a prime example. If it’s widely known enough to be corrupted in the public eye then it’s not typically a smart idea to be waving it about. But as an occultist there is no denying these symbols still hold power, so use them privately all you wish, but if you use it in public view then be prepared for the backlash. In the end it’s up to the individual magician and how they want themselves to be viewed in the public eye.
So, you think people have the right to use what symbols they like, essentially?
Because I agree, I mean i walked past someone in a t-shirt with a political symbol (for the sake of keeping this about the abstract concept, no need to get into what) and I did feel rage, disgust even, but didn’t react towards them based on it.
What level of deaths and atrocities, and “hate speech” towards other groups, do you draw the bar at, assuming we were to discuss a general guideline for all symbols?
I haven’t figured out how to use the quote thing yet so bear with me, but since we are in agreement for the first part more or less I will address the second.
The bar is in the public perception. Thats the bottom line honestly. It doesn’t matter how many people have been killed, raped, or utterly ravaged. Speaking in a purely broad sense it’s all about what is deemed “publicly acceptable” by the population at large. This is why I made a point of it being how you operate in a public setting versus how you operate behind closed doors with like minded individuals.
I feel the need to bring up the fact that Odin’s Eye is now “The Racist Cross” and Mijolnir is almost a “hate symbol” but I’ll be Damned if anyone is taking those from me.
So swastikas really fall into the same area for me and I respect those who are struggling to reclaim it.
That’s me personally.
Wow, but that means the person (scratch that - power structure) with the best dogma and propaganda wins, and the truth can not only be surpressed, but that there is an incentive to do it because “people think” is in itself an argument?
We would never have got past buirning and hanging witches if that was always honoured.
Also, who is “the public” and at what point could/would one generation’s ideals be overturned?
That’s kind of how the Taliban work, and they enforce it against popular uprisings so as to appear a unified force.
Are you really in favour of that? Genuine question, not being snarky.
Finnish air force parade. Swastika ain’t quite so irredeemable here, though I still wouldn’t get it as a tattoo or wear it on its own…
As I said, it is simply a matter of operating in the public eye, specifically from an American stance as well. And the best power structure wins is always been the name of the game. And the idiot masses will always be the majority. It’s not that I am in favor of going with whoever has the bigger gun, so to speak, but it’s simply how to go about your daily life and practice. If you want to save a symbol you have to start small. Introduce it slowly to a small group, until it becomes more widely recognized as something else. Thats propaganda 101.
Hey, thats fucking awesome. I never said I didn’t want to see these symbols reclaimed, just that in an individual basis it needs to be used mindfully.
So you’re cool with people using symbols like the Black Sun and swasis in their practice, where the intent is plainly self-expression and individual power? I ask for clarity and not snark, text is so weird like that.
If poeople need to keep things private, doesn’t that suggest a kind of ultimate slavery, though?
Should (controversial word! ) - should we not, as magicians, be opoposed to that kind of social censorship and thoughtless groupthink, on principle, even if we don’t personally care for the symbols, or for some group that has used them?
Yes I think we are on the same page now. Sorry if that wasn’t clear from the start. And here’s the thing, yes that does imply a form of social slavery, but society needs rules. The common man would tear himself and his peers apart without them. As magicians we are not the common man and operating around the common man’s structures is a sign of that. Though that’s touching on Nietzschian philosophy which could put me on a whole nother rant I ain’t got time for right now
That crosses a line into appropriation as well, which is probably a whole other can of worms, but let’s take the yin-yang symbol as an example, since afaik that has no controversy attached - it’s come to mean “yo I’m a chill dude with newage beliefs” anm totally divorced from its original meaning.
Not making a poiint here for or against its use that way, just showing how that tends to flow down to simplicfied concepts, or once powerful and meangful symbols.
Is it not the function of evolution, though, to rationally examine these at any stage, ad the great pendulum of society swings from one extreme to another, and cast out what is flawed?
And do we have to accept rules we see straight through as flawed and based on a lie of some kind (classic example, and I hope uncontroversial in this venue, being “do not talk to spirits”)?
Mjolnir and the solar cross are very much on the line for sure. But they are still on the line and that could be a fight easily won as long as we continue to push back.
My pushing back comes in the form of pointing out that Christians aren’t feeling the need to retire the cross ( a… torture… device…) Because of the KKK so you want my hammer come and get it the hard way ya hypocrite 🤷 . That’s pretty much my approach and I think my point is valid 🤷
Aaaaannnnddd…then there’s flags. Flags are symbols of empires that do nasty things. Do we change them because people don’t like us
Do you think it’s valid to engage these would-be censors within their own frame of reference, at all?
Because all this “X is a hate symbol” usually requires internalising the worldview of the accuser and then, dancing to his priorities and morals, in order to clear oneself of that charge.
Which takes us back to what is and is not acceptable, in terms of what killings and other things can be pinned to any symbol or expression of faith and belief, and where the cut-off line is drawn.
That goes right back to my point of us being magicians and therefore outside the realm of what is commonly held belief. Idiots will always simplify and skew complex concepts. So for the good of the whole we must outwardly appear the follow the rules while working quietly to change or break them as we see fit.
Fair enough. If you can’t get hired then you can’t eat and if you can’t eat then you can’t change squat. You’re taking a tactful long term approach instead of the bull in a China cabinet mentality.