Are Demons real?


#1

Hi E. A. and everyone,

I’m curious if you, E. A. think Demons are real? When I say real, I mean not just a part of ourselves or our unconscious or something like that. In other words are they a real entity that exists separate from ourselves.

Personally I get a feeling that they are.

I’ve also looked through a little bit of Michael W. Ford’s material on Luciferianism and he takes the stance that they are more representative and not real.

He also suggests that even if they were real we should not believe that they have any effect of our lives so that we maintain all of the power.

This does not sit quite right with me.

So, I’d love to know your take on this. I’d like to hear from others as well that have encountered this philosophy to see what your take is on it.

Even as I read over this, the question seems very basic, but it is a question I have wrestled with for some time and figured I would reach out here to understand better.

As this question relates to other things like Santeria, to me, those spirits are very real. So it makes sense to me that Demons are as well. Yet when seeing the opinion of Ford, it makes me wonder a little.

Thanks


#2

Personally I believe demons are real just not in the sense that most do. I think of them as different aspects of creation for good or bad that are necessary. They are a conscious force that one can attune themselves with to use for whatever means are available.

As far as what M. Ford said about not giving them power I agree to an extent. Don’t relinquish anymore power than your comfortable with. You are in control of your life not them. They can I fluence but it is up to you how much that influence affects you.


#3

Can I ask, TheWonderingFool, how that is different than what you believe most others do?

And I understand about not giving them power – it’s more that he doesn’t believe they are real, if I am understanding what I’m reading. That in essence they are simply parts of ourselves. And if that’s the case, why do I need to evoke them as I am them.

That’s why Ford’s explanation doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

My goal is certainly to become a living God. And to me that means taking charge of my own life. And that could also mean being responsible for what I need and want by means of Demons or other entities. After all, I’m doing the evoking.

Just trying to find a model that makes as much sense as possible so that as I evoke, I am fully aligned in my belief and purpose.


#4

Not sure I understand what your asking here.

And I understand about not giving them power – it's more that he doesn't believe they are real, if I am understanding what I'm reading. That in essence they are simply parts of ourselves. And if that's the case, why do I need to evoke them as I am them.

Just because something is a part of yourself doesn’t mean you have confronted, faced or worked past issues it can cause. Your higher self is in you but you may never become aware of it and its potentials if your not able to communicate with it.

I prefer to call them aspects of creation, he may like to call aspects of our personality but either way it really boils down to the same thing. He looks at them from a microcosmic level while I tend to look at them macrocosmically. The same divine and infernal forces that create this world were used to create us as well.

Just trying to find a model that makes as much sense as possible so that as I evoke, I am fully aligned in my belief and purpose.

That’s completely understandable and what I consider one of the most important factors in all of this. If you can’t get into the mythos or lore your going to feel like your just pretending.


#5
Not sure I understand what your asking here.

You said, “Personally I believe demons are real just not in the sense that most do.”

So I was asking how what you believe is different than what you believe most others believe? In other words, could you contrast your beliefs about this with what you believe others think.

That's completely understandable and what I consider one of the most important factors in all of this. If you can't get into the mythos or lore your going to feel like your just pretending.

I think you hit it dead on the head there.

So the words “mythos or lore” imply beliefs. Beliefs in things like the christian god got me no where. LOL

So how then does one go about establishing or getting into the proper mind set so it is not like pretending, from a perspective of something more concrete - or am I not looking at this right?


#6

What I meant is that I don’t think of them as evil. I view them as I would a shark or lion, its a force of nature that can fuck your world up if you don’t respect it. Demons IMO are the destructive, separating, and limiting forces of creation, they are not out to steal your soul or wreak havoc on the innocent. They have a function in the scheme of things and they do it well.

As far a working model I prefer the Qabalistic/Qliphothic model, it doesn’t necessarily have to pertain to the Judeo Christian God. I don’t think of God as a sentient being, more along the lines of the source of creation. Lucifer would be the highest form of conscious thought that separates itself from the union with God/source.


#7

That makes sense. Thanks.

In reading through some of the different posts I came across one from Timothy. Here is an excerpt from it:

[quote=“Timothy”]The hallmark mistake in white magickal theory is the belief that spirits are “real” beings, that have feelings, like little puppy dogs that big bad black magicians bully for personal amusement.

Spirits are pure consciousness, that exist in a state of potential energy, and we manifest them into a state of kinetic energy through the magick of evocation.

They exist solely to act and assist magickal growth. It is certainly not abuse to avail this resource, any more than its abuse to use a hammer to hit nails into wood.

These entities are not sitting around on the astral plane drinking beers, checking their watches, waiting for us to call them to do slave labor.

Until we evoke them, they do not exist.

And when we use them, they comply happily.[/quote]

This kind of helps me put this in perspective. At least somewhat. :slight_smile:


#8

Now, Azazel’s answer to me about the reality of spirits is interesting, and this is actually a newsletter/video blog that I’m working on.

“You ask if I am real? I am as real as the world around you, which is not real at all.”

We create all of existence around us as we go, our observation of the thing snapping it into place from a homogenous quantum soup into form and function. We have no problem believing that the world around us is real, even though at the most basic levels, nothing is solid, nothing is “real” in any objective way. Once you’ve performed a few hundred evocations, though, you realize that the spirit is quite real, in the moment of the evocation.


#9

So EA if they are real entities,do they have astral kingdoms like the kingdom of flames upon which ur greimoire is based on?

And is it possible to evoke them in the astral by any means?

Or if they exist in realms u can just project and visit there and then meet that entity?

In the mentalists handbook clint marsh says there exists a dimension called elysium…perhaps the highest level where the greek gods live.Is the elysium the place to search for demons and angels too?

U have studied and practiced occult for more than 20 years…what’s ur view on physical immortality?Is it achievable?

Do u plan to do a course or a book on tantra(primarily the Das Mahavidyas evoking the 10 avatars of Kali and getting siddhis from them and kundalini?That wud be gr8!!I am going to be the 1st buyer!!!Lots of nonsense info available about these stuff on the net and really need a genuine practitioner’s insight on the tantric path and the kundalini phenomenon!!!

Thanks

Astralreek


#10

When you visit a demon’s astral realm, I believe you will find that it is its realm. When you set foot in that forbidden realm, it is like the demon has swallowed you and become your entire world.


#11

Awesome!!!


#12

[quote=“E.A., post:8, topic:1328”]Now, Azazel’s answer to me about the reality of spirits is interesting…

“You ask if I am real? I am as real as the world around you, which is not real at all.”

Once you’ve performed a few hundred evocations, though, you realize that the spirit is quite real, in the moment of the evocation.[/quote]

EA - I remember reading that quote in the BoA. Thanks for reminding me of it.

This helped a lot. Time to get busy evoking more.

Can’t wait for the course.


#13

I find that Bk of AZAZEL quote interesting as it seems to be interpreted by many comments in this forum as meaning “spirits aren’t real except when you have evoked them- but we all know the world is real” (and further the spirits come from “human’s mind” or something)…

VS “as real as the world around you, which is not real at all.” And yet the world is real, in the same way that a cartoon-anime character is in a real-world (to them) within the drawn/CG, and yet outside of the screen…

some pop-culture images of the "quantum-physics mind affecting reality from the Foam/“collapsed waveForm” seems to be based upon a fully physical (self-evidently existing) human walking around in a QuantumFoam Flux of the Field… Like a human floating in Outer Space (and without a space-suit), or one walking through a hologram- not realizing they are also a hologram? (and yet not to imply- its all illusion, so just makeup whatever you want…)

That sort of a way of Band-Aid/duct-taping our exper of Real to the concept of reality… ease of expression of this in common-language…
And yet the Person observing is also constructed (at a cellular/molecular and thus quiff-quanta-lvl) simul arising from that ShubNiggarath Goat of 1K young…

 ---

in the same way "Nothing is True and Everything is Permitted" is understood by so many as "Anything can be True and Everything is Permitted" --and then, "I can Believe and thereby exper anything I want, and I'm Permitted to" and 
believing that, creates it (so is an Entity preexisting?  maybe, and yet the moment I make one up in my head that creates one also- so how can I tell?? )

oh course to be tricky, can one have an idea, or conceive of a Spirit or Realm that doesn’t already exist (somewhere)? Ie those ancient Greek ideals that inspiration of Ideas is perceiving and recognition- an insight is a Reception/received.


#14

The BofA fuckin blew me away. Having a very strong Theravada Buddhist steeping, A LOT of the passages read like a Theravadan Text…“All phenomena is preceded by Mind”.
EVERYTHING is Mind-made…who’s mind? My mind.

The conversation between EA and Azazel is spot on. Those passages COMPLETELY resonated with me. There is nothing “out there”, ALL experiences are 1st processed in the physical brain, then “deciphered” if you will with the Mind. And what is this “deciphering” you ask?

My judgements
My expectations
My prejudices
My needs & wants
My unconscious desires - this is a BIG one
My, my, my, my…MINE! The part that holds me back personally…my fear BALG…my goddamn fear.

So yeah Demons are real. So are Angels. Just as long as you remember that regardless…ALL OF THIS is just data being processed through the input/carrier signals of the brain, and that your eyes don’t SEE they merely are lenses, and EVERYTHING is taking place at the top of your nerve ganglia (head).


#15

Like Lon Milo DuQuette says: Its all in your head, you just have no idea how big that is.