An objective, unified, macrocosmic "demonic" gnosis

General Discussion
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I’ve always been interested in getting a bird’s eye view of what I’m getting into before practically immersing myself into praxis.
And although a lot of application-magick can be useful at times (money magick, love/sex magick… ie magick in general helping us in our day-to-day lives) - in this thread I am more interested in finding a common denominator from several kinds of gnosis - regarding the macrocosmic implications of this whole “path”

What I’ll do in this post is take some common intersectional knowledge from gnosis received in some popular black magick grimoires. And link them - to see if a common thread can be churned out from this all. And I invite you all to ponder over this and share your opinions on this.

The grimoires I have consulted for the sake of this particular thread are the following -

  • The Mystical Qabalah (Dion Fortune) — alongside other basic books on the Qabalah by Regardie, Thomas Karlsson, MacGregor Mathers, Crowley et al
  • Belial; Without a Master (The Belial Compendium/Book 1 of the 9 Gatekeepers - BALG)
  • The Book of Azazel (EA Koetting - BALG)
  • Azazel Steal Fire From the Gods (The Azazel Compendium/Book 3 of the 9 Gatekeepers - BALG)
  • Black Magick of Ahriman (Kurits Joseph - BALG)
  • The Book of Sitra Achra (NA-A.218)
  • Overcoming the Archon through Alchemy (John Kreiter)
    …and other works of John Kreiter

Mind you, this is not a summary of the above grimoires. All the books mentioned above have some intriguing content that demands a reading of the actual text to truly get the essence of them. What I am doing here is gleaning some “common” information to arrive at points of agreement.

Some common gnosis from the above books include

  • First, there was Ain. The nothingness of fullness. And while Ain desired to “experience itself through its limitations” it densed down into Ain Soph and Ain Soph Aur. However, not the entirety of Ain desired to “experience itself” - a part of Ain wanted to remain in it’s state of limitless dark potentiality. And thus a rift was created. The part of Ain that wanted to experience itself densed itself down and manifested itself into “creation” - through the first Sephirah on the Tree of Life (Kether), and downwards.

  • Naturally, the “dark side” opposed this. Thus creating the first rift between “darkness and light” — between the Demiurge (YHVH/Yahweh) and the Adversary (HVHY/Chavajoth)
    The cult of 218 (anti-cosmic antinomianism) believes that this battle continues today, and the very purpose of the Qliphothic forces is to oppose the Demiurge - and burn the Tree of Life from the inside out — to take everything back to undifferentiated limitless Ain

  • The demiurge is an “archonic” force - and its creation is based on subjugation. Which the Qlipothic forces oppose. There is within the DNA structure of mankind a “code” that contains this hidden potentiality for godlike power, which we humans are yet to remember… for we have forgotten about it - thanks to this parasitic JCI archonic domination. Via interaction and working with the Infernal Empire can we seek to take this power back, to ascend, to “evolve”

  • The JCI demiurge (YHVH) is not a singular entity, but a collective of archons. And the Infernal Empire is not in any way “weaker” or “stronger” than this demiurge. For The Infernal Empire is “not a part of this demiurge” - but a power of equal potentiality - due to it being the other half of undifferentiated Ain - the demiurge being the other half.

  • Humans are evolving, and gaining the knowledge that was once held from us by the demiurge. The knowledge of which will turn us into gods, capable of overthrowing it. This path being known as “Ascent”, or “The Great Work”

:hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole: :hole:

Now,
I am well aware this isn’t “all” of it. There are a lot of details, subtleties that are so voluminous that a singular internet “thread” wouldn’t do justice to it all. But this is (apparently) the common “gist” of the Infernal Gnosis

Feel free to add your own opinions and viewpoints to this. But some specific questions, I’d like to have answered here are

  • A lot many grimoires show commonalities regarding the conclusions mentioned of above. Although there are minor differences from grimoire to grimoire, this appears to be the overarching inference. Do you subscribe to this gnosis?
  • There are many “currents” in ascent. If the gnosis mentioned above is “universal and objective” then
    1. what is the ultimate purpose of Infernal Ascent? Return back to the undifferentiated potentiality of Ain? If yes, that would mean all creation would stop. There would be no purpose in all of us becoming living gods if the very aim of the Infernal Empire is to return back to anti-cosmic Ain. There would be nothing left. Where’s the fun in that?
    2. if point 1 mentioned above is not “universal” (in the sense it is the exclusive UPG of the current of Azerate/218) - then how does does the concept of Qliphoth of the Current 218 coincide with other concepts of the Qliphoth? And if the very idea for the reason and purpose the Qliphoth (which both acknowledge the same rulers of the 10 Qlipha) exists and serves is disputed, then what’s the deal of it all?
    3. What about alternate currents to spirituality that do not indulge the JCI narrative - The Egyptian, the Hindu/Vedic, the Norse etc – how do these fit into the ultimate plan of the Infernal Forces?
    4. And finally ------ what about Chaos Magick then? A chaote could easily argue for “paradigm shifting” — that is, shifting her/his beliefs according to the situation at hand and immersing oneself into different currents. If this is possible, then would it mean that the overarching JCI storyline of “The Archonic Demiurge vs the Infernal Empire” is not an objective universal event? If it’s not — then well… fuck my life lmao. — what’s going on?

P:S - JCI here is Judeo/Christian/Islamic

— Darkest Greetings.
Rox.

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I’m not a Satanist/Luciferian/Demonolator, but I want to say, I very much love your philosophical questions posed at the end. I think you have found problems within dogma. Personally I am going towards a more Platonist or Neoplatonist path, and this has arised not necessarily by my concious choosing. But I don’t believe there is one path for everyone, or necessarily one objective truth of everything that will be completely accurate in all things (or at least this cannot be communicated through one system alone)

This seems to be the nature of the subject matter. However, things are not entirely relativist, unlike some Chaos Magicians and those in the more New Thought group may say. This becomes very clear after further practice, especially practice in the highest things.

You must find your own path but be careful to push dogma. Clearly, things don’t follow the common JCI narrative, or the more dogmatic infernal current narrative, as those in those groups are the only ones to have come to see things this way.

Currently, I don’t necessarily believe The One (which is the Platonist or Neoplatonist term for that concept similar to The Tao) is a singular spirit or being, in the sense of the Christian God or otherwise, but it is the ground of being. But, it can be experienced as a conciousness or being. It can be experienced as being good, and it can be experienced as being in between good and evil. Currently I believe The One is more good than otherwise, unlike in the gnostic narrative.

There is not necessarily one objective truth, or one experience for all. It seems the concept of The One at least comes close to the truth, as almost all have experienced it, and we see the effects and reality of it through traditional astrology, alchemy, and magick. But beyond this, there is much variety.

If you continue in the right way on your search for gnosis, you will encounter wonders.

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What do you refer to here? Is it an imply of The One being something created? Im confused. Or do you mean there was no Demiurge?

I am of thhe same belief ,that this thing is a ground of being. I try not to give it a name. When I don’t speak about it, its everything.

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No not something created. If this universe was created through any one Demiurge, this being would arise from The One, and I believe in nature this Demiurge would be more good than otherwise.

If I’m not mistaken, some Gnostics believed the universe along with the Demiurge to be evil. Plotinus has a long argument against a doctrine like that of the Gnostics and argues for it to rather be more of a good nature in his Enneads, but I have not studied his work.

Yes, ultimately it cannot be called by any single name. But I feel The One is a good term for it, as everything is part of one single unified living being.

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True, anything that isn’t God is evil in their POV. In Hermetica, there is a similar point, but I think anything that isn’t God is just ‘not-good’ more than neccesarily ‘Demiurge bad, help’.

OP, sorry for the derail. :sweat_smile:

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Yes this is also the view of Neoplatonists, as far as I’ve seen. There is nothing outside of The One, and some things simply have an absence of good.

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Quite so brother. Your points are well-thought out and articulated themselves. Cheers for sharing your inputs regarding this. This does seem like a question with its root tied to dogma

To me, God with a capital G would be conceptually closer to what the Qabalah calls Ain, that undifferentiated limitless potentiality, the “universal mind” of which all minds are a subset - until they reach enlightenment/ascension et al. After all since you mention Hermetics, it is the first principle of Hermetics that itself states : “All is Mind”

As for the derail, don’t worry about it man. I appreciate a good discussion

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The Kybalion isn’t hermetic, my friend. :sweat_smile: I do agree with limitless potential part, however.

In Corpus Hermeticum actually it does clearly state Mind is below God, because it comes from God. God is the cause.

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The Kybalion is as much Hermetic as is Iron Maiden a metal band brother… in the sense that the authors of the Kybalion, “The Three Initiates” are purportedly conveying the revelations of Hermes Trismegistus

This though, is interesting.
Rene Descartes would be fucking rolling in his grave with “I think therefore I am”, while clearly to my ‘mind’ (the irony) - Consciousness comes before Mind.

And consciousness springs from a Personal source (one that isn’t merely an impersonal abstract concept)
Funny, how we could relate this to concepts of ‘Nirguna’ and ‘Swaguna’ Brahman of Oriental Sanatan Dharma… ‘Swaguna’ Brahman simply being “The One, but with attributes of personality”…from which Mind springs.
Thus “Mind is below God” would get a nod from these people

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But brother, there are no three initiates. Thats a pen name of William Walker Atkinson. He has many pen names.

William Walker Atkinson (December 5, 1862 – November 22, 1932) was an attorney, merchant, publisher, and author, as well as an occultist and an American pioneer of the New Thought movement. He is the author of the pseudonymous works attributed to Theron Q. Dumont and Yogi Ramacharaka.

There is clear hermetic influence on The Kybalion but it is a new thought book, dressed as hermetic. I didn’t write all of this for a piss race, if I sound like that, I do not mean it brother. I think @anon74630111 can confirm what I said here, as us three seem to be the only ones who are interested in these.

Mate I can not comment on later parts, as tou are clearly more well read on the subject than I am at the moment. I haven’t read any of the authors you mentioned. Sorry about that.

Unrelated, do you plan to contiune updating this thread? A journal would be fine, you know.

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“You can forget what you are, who you are, and where you are – but you can never forget that you are.”

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Excuse the double post –

“Infernal ascent” seems contradictory – as far as polarities go, there seems to be a split between the LHP and RHP philosophies, with some people taking a middle approach.

How do you reckon? If Ain/the All is the source of creation, and responsible for all creation, why would creation cease if every aware thing were to merge with it? What is the meaning of consciousness if not to experience?

It depends what you believe are the goal of said infernal forces. To cease all creation? I doubt this is the case. To create a lawless society? Maybe, probably not. To be sovereign over oneself in their mortal existence? Yeah, maybe getting warmer there.

This is probably the closest description to my own practice, which generally defies description, because I feel no tie nor bond to either polarity of praxis.

How do you define the Demiurge? Some think of this archetype as as an inherently evil or chaotic or lawless force. I tend to think differently. Personally though, I do not subscribe to the idea of Archons. Chaos current has its perks. Adopt whatever suits you, divorce the rest.

Nothing is true, everything is permitted.

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Correct. Which is why I put “The Three Initiates” in quotes :wink: Although if William Atkinson and Ramacharaka are the same people, there is someone that would be pretty pissed to know of it - Lon Milo Duquette

I do not intend this thread as a journal bro but cheers for the idea. I might create a separate thread for that sometime. On this one I’m more interested to know what people’s ideas are regarding a “unified gnosis in magick/spirituality”

Your second post was fucking fantastic actually. I’m digging the detailed insight.

For consciousness is eternal :smiling_imp:

" If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite"

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According to the secret teachings of all the ages of manly p hall, the 2 currents of Gnosticism Had 2 different concepts of the demiurge:

  1. Demiurge just does and follows the ones orders
  2. The demiurge is an evil force that acts independently of the one.

It is very interesting how the 2 currents differ.

I think that the answers to the Ops questions depends on what one’s personal beliefs are. I for example, think that if everything emanates from the one (source) then the beings of “light” and “darkness” have the same divinity just different ways to achieve accession or salvation according to jci doctrine. The whole ordo ab chao is very real in my book, and think you can’t have light with out the dark, everything has to balance out in the universe.

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@RoxSta I haven’t fully read The Kybalion, but I do know of the principles presented in it, and from what I know of the text already clearly shows how it is based in New Thought.

Here is a very excellent study on how The Kybalion is different from traditional Hermeticism:

http://www.jwmt.org/v3n24/chapel.html#_edn65

So, you could say The Kybalion is Hermetic in the same way that Metallica is a blackened death metal band, or, an early 2000’s all girl pop band.

I have also never seen a contemporary Hermeticist who accepts the Kybalion as a Hermetic text.

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I’m not experienced, but here are my opinions as a subscriber to the 218 cosmology.

Godhood to me is being sovereign over oneself. I want it after I die - no more reincarnation. I want to be like the demons, but I wanna learn about what it truly means and what would my POV, my thoughts, powers etc look like.

Ain isn’t a “still, silent” place for me. I think it’s more like a dream on steroids instead of annihilation, you’re not bound to any laws of physics and time. I watched a video from Infernal Obelisk where he talked about meeting “entities” (?) from that place (?) and they were forever shapeshifting and, well, doing anything but staying still and being comprehensible to humans lol. That was my first glimpse into 218 and it wouldn’t get out of my mind. I started diving into VK Jehannum’s blog and stuff and here I am now…

Despite being anti-cosmic I really love the Earth and all lifeforms in here. I think they, and we, are a small branch of the tree of endless possibilites that Ain has.

The Qabalists say that Malkuth, our physical world, didn’t exist in the original tree of life and only after the fall it came into existence. If this were a mistake in the Sephirotic perspective, maybe it was a work of the Qliphotic forces. I know that Beelzebub, who governs a qlipha (I forgot its name!) really loves biology and all living creatures, and as a pagan god he was seen as a lord over the earth…