A system that does not require belief?

I am an extreme novice at magick. I fully understand that I need to give this a lot of time. And I will. But in the mean time I remain skeptical. Until I see results, I will be. So, my question is whether there is any system that relies entirely on the power of the entity and the physical acts of the magician and does not need the beliefs of the magician.

How do you communicate with the entity if you don’t believe it exists? I mean I know it’s more complex than that, and I’m not being snarky, but I’m confused?

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Well I guess in my way of thinking, if the entity exists, then he will hear me if I follow the proper steps regardless of my belief. Then, if he heads my request, I will no he exists.

What you are thinking of seems more along the lines of alchemy. Science not magick, because if you have no beliefs in the magickal processes or that there is an entity on the other side willing to help you, but you DO believe you can alter your reality to get results, that’s just science. Figuring out cause and effect, and changing the cause to ultimately change the effect.

I understand your point. But I am interested in theistic magick and can’t shake it. However, in my mind, if an entity exists, he should be able to hear me as long as I go through the proper steps. Anything short of that seems a little fishy to me, like I’m just psyching myself up and talking to myself. And I’m definitely not interested in atheistic/jboy magick.

In the chaos magick paradigm it is not unusual to work with things one does not necessarily believe exist, although on the surface that may seem counter intuitive. Peter Carroll talks about this in Liber Kaos where he says:

“In Chaos Magick, beliefs are not seen as ends in themselves, but as tools for creating desired effects. To fully realize this is to face a terrible freedom in which nothing is true and everything is permitted…The purpose of Chaos rituals is to create beliefs by acting as if such beliefs were true. In Chaos Rituals you fake it till you make it, to obtain the power that a belief can provide.”

That’s pretty much my take on it. While I believe in the existence of ghosts, spirits and NHE’s, I do not share the common belief on forums like this of a literal existence of a demonic hierarchy or that these demons exist in objective reality with all these specific traits that people ascribe to them. But I do believe in the power of belief.

Thanks for your thoughts Iam Incide. I sincerely appreciate all points of view and enjoy the dialogue. But the view you stated is precisely the type of thing that I have no interest in whatsoever. I would prefer just to work hard through traditional means to obtain my goals.

Lady Eva, Iam Incide has the type of belief that keeps me from being able to accept that entities exist without proof. How can I get past this type of thing? Remember, I am not interested in Atheistic Magick.

Raven… Isn’t all magic short of science, all magic is as real after all. At least the working kind.

But about beliefs, you need to belief enough that it works - and that doesn’t really answer your question because there is not clear answer that i’m coming up with. I’m certain that the demons and all of this do exist, but i also have those skeptical programmings installed in me - so its all very bipolar for me.

But i do go on with it like it was the only truth.

Black Flame, I meant that if you use a magickal means to change an outcome then it’s magick. If you use a non-magickal means to change it, then it’s science or just creatively figuring what needs to be done using logical thinking. Scientist do not believe magick is real so to group the 2 together, is a gray area, meaning not too many people are sure where magick falls on a scientific spectrum.

Oh well, its all the same to me… Humans with their fancy strict definitions for science,magic,pseudo-science…

  • Occultism (The secret science)

I think the only way that I can believe is to read testimonies on here from people for whom magick has worked. Eventually I will have my own stories.

Heck, I dunno mate! :slight_smile:

Moderator on a forum about magick doesn’t make me the Ambassador Of Magick with the ability or desire to work past every possible objection you have, whilst staying (as you’ve asked) within your existing beliefs and preferences, in order to sell you on the idea magick’s real.

That’s a big ask, even from a professional magician (which I’m not) who you were paying by the hour or something.

I’m not being mean, I just can’t relate to your question and your desire to keep your existing beliefs intact, because I started communicating with spirits and doing spells and stuff when I was a kid, so I can’t imagine coming to this with a very fixed adult mindset, and my boyfriend believes more or less what Iam Incide proposes, so I’m used to the idea, and don’t feel any need to try to demolish it…

Try it and see? Maybe someone else will want to take this on, but since you asked me specifically, I have nothing to say except that, sorry! :slight_smile:

As for testimonials, there’s a thread called The Monday Post pinned in General, that’s had 2 - 3 success stories most weeks from real people posting here, and links to all their threads.

I’ll stir the pot a little by saying belief is not required, as long as you can SUSPEND DISBELIEF. If you can keep from disbelieving, or be open minded, if you prefer, you’ll get results. Try some simple sigil magic, Chaos style, and see what happens. Getting results will strengthen belief. Here’s a pretty good guide to get you started:


^ That’s really great advice, I think I was lucky to come at this when I was at an age when I was still learning about what reality was, including my own internal realities and the reality of the world I was growing up in.

Another thing jboy, I spent most of my adult life caught up in various Right-Hand Path/religiously-based ideas (honouring a concept of a god who’s a moral and spiritual superior and arbiter) and also various ideas that there was something WRONG with the planet, something WRONG with me, etc.

I managed to change that just before it completely destroyed me and to simultanesouly HEAL clinical depression that had been diagnosed several times over from when I was a child.

I did that - saved my own life, probably - by not holding onto beliefs about what must be and what IS real.

Now hopefully you don’t have such a warped mind as I had (and probably still have) but to cut to the chase, NOTHING in my entire lived experience of communicating with spirits and doing magickal operations has led me to believe that having a closed fixed mindset that rules things out without even trying them, is helpful.

Of course we need to have a working model of reality to make it through the day and as a foundation for theories and stuff, but insisting on defending it and refusing to even try anything that counters it, that’s not going to get anyone very far in my personal opinion - and I say again, I’m no expert, no spokesman for magick, my life’s not perfect, etc.

But yeah, Chef1964 nailed it there in far fewer words… :wink:

Chef 1964. Now THAT I can buy into!

In my opinion, existence is to acknowledge one another. You wouldn’t “exist”, for me, if I wouldn’t recognize you, right? I think beliefs is crucial when it comes to working with spirits and entities.