This is really interesting.
I have been fascinated for some time concerning the mechanics behind the incense. I had asked EA at one point what his thoughts were on using a bucket on a tripod, suspended several feet above the triangle, filled with water and dry ice to produce a suitable “vapor” for the use in evocation.
His reply was that he doubted it. I did try it, but at the time I had very little experience, so I had nothing to compare it with.
At any rate - Bardon’s take on the incense is that the censor and smoke itself represents materialization. Bardon takes the stance that symbolism is just as important as the actual mechanics behind it. Which, in a sense is an aspect of the mechanics in and of itself.
But as far as the incense goes - he points out that in the burning of incense, an atmosphere is created which simulates the realm of whichever entity is being evoked. So he recommends using the plants and incenses that produce a vibratory environment similar to the entities home environment. He also recommends “room impregnation”, or filling the ritual chamber or temple with the specific vibration through meditation and energy manipulation as well.
In fact, Bardon compares the evocation of an entity without properly preparing the room via impregnation and using the correct vibrational incenses to calling a fish out of water.
I’m sure there are deeper mysteries concerning how it actually produces some base for the process of manifestation, however, I found this an interesting addendum to the mystery of incense.
The alchemical point of view seems to be in alignment with this as well.
Definitely some interesting shit.
Come to think of it - I wonder if fully understanding this would shed a bit more light on manifesting desires - the principle has to be the same. I mean, EA’s manifestation ritual proves that the concepts are similar at even the most intimate and detailed levels.
Kitari - crazy story about the “Vanishing Tom” heh
You are bringing up interesting concepts here…Myself not fully understanding one difference here…what, if any, difference is there between having a spirit having an easier time manifesting within the confines of smoke or haze, and say… a person adept at astrally appearing in a room to talk to or view another person? You say Bardon mentions using compounds aligning to the spirits home, etc… what about the human spirit that is traveling with mental or astral travel to a location (appears to me to be the same trip when the spirit leaves his base to materialize in the physical with us)?..what prompted this question is based on the old OAA initiations where to receive one specific flame, the person goes out in the open to receive advancement to another level…I remember the words…either EA or myself will be there and you will be aware of us to acknowledge you…and there was no incense or smoke required to accomplish this…
Why then would incense or smoke be more of a requirement to have the spirit materialize than have EA or the teacher materialize out in the open area without any incense or smoke?
[quote=“Maxx, post:22, topic:392”]You are bringing up interesting concepts here…Myself not fully understanding one difference here…what, if any, difference is there between having a spirit having an easier time manifesting within the confines of smoke or haze, and say… a person adept at astrally appearing in a room to talk to or view another person? You say Bardon mentions using compounds aligning to the spirits home, etc… what about the human spirit that is traveling with mental or astral travel to a location (appears to me to be the same trip when the spirit leaves his base to materialize in the physical with us)?..what prompted this question is based on the old OAA initiations where to receive one specific flame, the person goes out in the open to receive advancement to another level…I remember the words…either EA or myself will be there and you will be aware of us to acknowledge you…and there was no incense or smoke required to accomplish this…
Why then would incense or smoke be more of a requirement to have the spirit materialize than have EA or the teacher materialize out in the open area without any incense or smoke?
Maxx[/quote]
Good question. And hermetically speaking - humans have such a spiritual construction as to be able to ascend to godhood. Meaning, we’re composed of all of the elements (earth, fire, air, water, akashic) and are able to thus manifest in any realm. Most other entities from other realms are either one single element (elementals) or two or three, but none are so called, tetrapolar, which limits them tremendously in comparison to us.
… also, I’m sure when you’re dealing with an actual physical materialization you go into scopes of sciences and knowledge that are quite outside simply appearing. From what I understand, if you can get an entity to physically materialize as compared to astrally appearing, then you can request immediate physical changes. If they only appear astrally, they have to work to meet your request through the astral and as such make it trickle into the physical.
Lol yeah sadly I never saw the guy again. It pisses me off so much that as long as I stayed there I never even ran into anyone at that apartment complex that knew who I was talking about. I really would’ve loved to learn how he did that.
I don’t rule out the act of transmutation completely. It’s never been explained to me in the manner cited above and I’m moved into the thought that these vaporous materials are the most effective ways known to cause this to happen. I haven’t found any other way to do it myself but this keeps nagging at me in my head. I’m not one to fix something that isn’t broken but I’m all for upgrades and that’s what I’m trying to get at here that possibly there is a method of causing this transmutation by for lack of a better term at the moment “an act of will” which I believe is the pinnacle of the art of evocation when there is no other medium for the manifestation and all that is left is the omnipotent god and the power and intelligence that he has called forth to appear before him in physical form.
To be able to call forth into physical form any demon, angel, spirit, planetary intelligence or whatever else at any time regardless of where you are or what you have on hand is in my opinion complete mastery of the art.
Whether this is even possible is open to speculation and I respect the views of all the people who have spoken up thus far but it’s just been a bit of an obsession that I haven’t been able to shake since I read Evoking Eternity.
@DK…
Then bringing in to mind the LOA that EA mentions in his book, that dwell in a much closer location to us on the physical realm, and are supposed to be more apt to work in this realm than the hermetic spirits, are you saying it is easier to work with them because they would be composed of more of the four elements like you mention above, and they would be easier to manifest than the hermetic beings?
Knowing the difference in dealing with the LOA than the Hermetic beings, is that once contacted they are with you forever and you cannot close the door whenever you want…they are always jerking your chain…? Is that correct or not?
Also, I remember reading here or in one of EAs books that you can summon another person’s spirit just the same as you summon a hermetic spirit being, are we talking about the same method of evocation here?
I don’t know anything about the Loa, though the Voudon tradition fascinates me. I’m sure I will get into it when I’m ready. However, it is my understanding that the Loa are beings of past humans who have learned to stay in the astral and gain tremendous powers. Also - I have heard that some of the Loa were intelligences created by high priests who were never dissolved and have had the opportunity to grow to incredible strengths. That being said, then it is a logical conclusion that the Loa are also tetrapolar beings who are just as capable as any master mage.
as for this “Tom” fellow - sounds like he was human, though might not be. But again, humans are tetrapolar, so they are literally in the form of the highest divinity, composed of all and capable of controlling all energies.
I’m under the impression that these beings have no form at all until we call upon them. To give an example of my philosophy Azazel is the bringer of forbidden knowledge and power. So when calling on Azazel you are giving physical and communicable form to all forbidden knowledge and power. Calling on Djinn the elemental king of fire you are calling upon all of the aspects of fire to appear before you in beholdable form to communicate with you in a conscious physical body and so on. Does this make sense to anybody else? lol
oh, totally. I’m of the same mindset. That they are literal forces and powers that only take on physical form during certain rituals and communications.
I’ve actually wondered what it would appear as if I were to call on the force of magnetism in evocation. It’s an interesting though. Or the color yellow. Or the essence of ‘Deja Vu’ … wonder what you could learn from that hehe
“Then bringing in to mind the LOA that EA mentions in his book, that dwell in a much closer location to us on the physical realm, and are supposed to be more apt to work in this realm than the hermetic spirits, are you saying it is easier to work with them because they would be composed of more of the four elements like you mention above, and they would be easier to manifest than the hermetic beings?”
This is a very interesting point, as I’ve never had to use incense at all to work with the Loa. Then again, they are not evoked, although many spirits do indeed appear, and yet again, there are usually blood sacrifices in major Vodoun rituals, as well as rum and various waters sprinkled, dancing, singing, drums, etc. etc, all of which provides a palpably thick environment
And there is the question of the physical apparitions concensus westerners call ghosts who appear all the time to people who have never even heard of evocation. These things all lead me to believe that there is more to manifestation (or at least there are more ways to achieve it) than through the byproduct of vaporous substances.
Kitari - I’ve wondered that too.
I think EA’s mentioned a few times, as well as some other things I’ve read that most, not all, but most of the time a loved one who has passed who manifests to those who are grieving are actually consciousnesses who were made by the grieving unconsciously simply due to the high emotions and fixation on the loss. Soon though - soon we’ll be able to tack this all out for ourselves. heh
EA, question - I’ve heard you say that anybody who tries to work with the Loa, not having been initiated, would be in serious danger. Would this also go for those who were master mages, in the state of complete divine ecstasy, acting as creation itself? Or does there come a point in spiritual evolution and maturity that earthly initiations can no longer dictate such things? That the Loa would have to obey whether or not such a mage was an actual initiate?
@Kitari…
Your comment brought to mind an example in and old book I have called Sorcery by J. Finley Hurley. He gives an example of a man that was locked up in prison and each night he would disappear from his cell and go out visiting the town and other places…they would make sure he was locked up but then he would leave, but he would return during the early morning hours…there was no way they could keep him locked up … or down…lol…
All these different narratives just reinforce for me that this forum begins the initial stages of learning magic…which has such a far reaching goal in the distance that once entering the walk, this will aways hold the interest of the person, and you can never reach full understanding of all elements even by becoming a god or God.
I do see parallels between Grimoires, ‘Folk Magick’ being concealed under the ruling force of the time (ruling thought police force) like Christianity/Catholicism - as was Voudon.
This was through necessity.
Parroting anything mindlessly is dangerous, or at best ineffective.
The ideologies are more dangerous than anything, because they polarise.
I do agree - it doesnt matter what religion you are
By now it should be obvious the beings manifest themselves across many of them as one point…
It is ‘mankind’ that ‘cares’ about religion, but are actually imprisoned by it…
The thing that attracts me to this learning here, is that there must be a system, there are principles.
So what do you think the Lwa are? Some even think the Lwa are the souls of people who, in our own way of talking, became ‘living gods’. One is not ‘above’ them to command them. One will never be ‘above’ them any more than, as a part of this cosmos, one can be ‘above’ it. For myself I imagine to ‘be creation’ is to be in harmony with the cosmos to the point that its powers are a part of you and you are a part of them, and so everything that is possible becomes possible. There’s far, far too much of this ‘I’ve been given divine authority’ nonsense right in the bones of Western magic, with which to bully and beat the cosmos into submission, but that’s the basic idea of all monotheistic religions, isn’t it? There’s this ‘God’ that transcends everything, and yet is still somehow responsible for it all, ‘creating’ ex nihilo and setting up laws and running the whole shebang like some sort of clockwork machine. I call nonsense on that one. See how badly attempts to exercise such ‘authority’ over primordial powers turn out when considering the terrible reputation that the spirits of the Lemegeton have in the Western ‘tradition’. The veneer of this man-made world, however, is another matter. It needs to be beaten. The Lwa, though, are only a part of it insofar as this world is built atop the cosmic depths and as they have been called into it.
From what I gather, the Lwa do not obey. They don’t take commands from either the layman or the initiate. They are served and serve in return, but they don’t have to do anything in any legal sense. They simply will flow through you into this world when you have opened your life to them. Hell, you don’t even get to choose which of the Lwa to serve. You have to find the ones who already walk with you, and the only way to gain ‘access’ to other spirits is for someone to introduce you to them. It’s as though we’re microcosmic gates for the macrocosmic powers. So the importance of initiation. It’s like someone unlocking a secret door within you and leading some strange guests to it, whereas the misguided Western gung-ho approach is to go knocking on a stranger’s door with a ‘trespassers will be beaten, shot, drawn and quartered and fed to the dogs’ sign hanging over it.
[quote=“Vagelli, post:36, topic:392”]A lot to read here.
I do see parallels between Grimoires, ‘Folk Magick’ being concealed under the ruling force of the time (ruling thought police force) like Christianity/Catholicism - as was Voudon.[/quote]
Except Voudo lies much closer to its African roots, and to traditional European magic (or ‘goetia’ - a horribly misused word) for that matter, than does the Western ‘high magic’ practised by people like Asterion. It’s obvious that for him ‘truth’ can only lie in the medieval Judaic tradition and that everything else must be a lie. Well, I’d put a Houngan up against his sort and their ‘God’ any day of the week and watch the blood and bones fly.
Hiya OP! The monotheist bias, while taken literally by a large amount of people, isn’t the true meaning of its inclusion in grimoires. At the times of their writing, the perspective of the local dominant monotheist culture was used to mask the true nature of the magic in an acceptable format that wouldn’t get the writer(s) prosecuted, which sometimes resulted in death. It’s a blinder!
What the grimoires that employ a monotheist perspective are functionally doing- which was very likely recognized by the authors of those times- is engineering the microcosm to reflect (into) the macrocosm. The imagery of monotheism is used to create a gateway into infinity, where the endless nature of existence is accounted for and included in the spellwork. They build a mirror of the macrocosm in ritual by opening the door to infinity and endless possibility, and add the structures into that platform to operate the magic as designed. Like how the Shem angels are used to balance the Goetia demons; it is not the literal interpretation that they are utilizing, but the pattern built by sequencing local reality with the energies of the universe at large. Magic doesn’t happen in a vacuum, and the best results manifest when the created and charged space directly reflects the qualities of reality at large. It’s a machine!
Monotheism is just a mask, a metaphor that’s included to serve as a gateway to the ‘primordial ooze’ that originates reality. If you don’t find it serviceable, pick a different metaphor!
The structure is numerical in essence, and operates along these lines:
1- Inifnity/Endlessness/All
2- Balance, filter of 1
3- Time, filter of 2 + 1
4- Space, filter of 3 + 2 + 1
5- Energy/Action, filter of 4 + “
6- Thought/Mind, filter of 5 + “
7- Matter, filter of 6 + “
8- Change, filter of 7 + “
9- Probability/Possibility, filter of 8 + “
heh
hehe
