History of the Goetia and modern accounts of Goetic experience

General Discussion
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@Faustus Thank you for the input. I’m aware of Weyer’s alterations and have already researched the source materials you’ve mentioned. I briefly mentioned earlier in the thread that transmutation(probably the wrong term) of the sigils could bring about different effects.

In fact, some of the Goetic entities have different sigils in different editions of the Goetia but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they were corrupted for the purpose of making the sigil useless. Take Bathin for example. Google his sigil and go to images. There are 2 sigils, the one sigil has a trumpet, no crescent and the other has the crescent but no trumpet(along with some other changes). But they are nearly equal in number of appearances, leading me to think that they might both work. I’ve found 8 duplicates, explicitly of: Bathin, Leraie, Paimon, Beleth, Seere, Vual, Vepar and Bune. Bune’s are especially interesting in how drastic the differences are. Can anyone shed some light on the matter or give a link to a thread/s that does?

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Acvording to mexican witches which goetia, was gain knowledge of them by Spain peopls back in the 16,century wen tey come to mexico. Mostly to make fortunes witches come hidden from the roman church harassment. Its why aodeus. Baphomet, astaroth are popular in mexico. But it not explain wjy so. Many witches of autentic covens for generations do no use goetia
Instead tey by 15,or 20 years old got back to europe to do fortune. After years of traing magick. Goetia is all over South America europe. Australia but not much in irak. Paquistan. Israel… Bxse tey have dijins. Elements etc.

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I haven’t seen anything in the literary tradition that traces back to Spain or Mexico. Sounds more like folklore than something based on fact.

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I dont think there’s a history of the goetia within mexico, especially around the fact that witches in mexico regards have different origins one of which tied to one of the goddesses and childbirth, not really with the goetia.

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The sigils were something unique to the Goetia and didn’t appear in either Pseudomonarchia or the Book of Offices. The variations were likely copyist errors rather than an attempt at corruption

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You can perform a ritual in complete silence without any fancy equipment if privacy is a concern for you. If you have time to read about magick, then I can guarantee that you have time to do magick.

Given the abundance of information available about the Goetia in works by modern authors, I think it would be wise to know of a demon’s powers prior to summoning them so that you may choose the demon who best fits your needs for a given situation. The demons will often appear in a form that is unique to you, if they choose to appear to you at all, and straining to create a specific form that you may have read about in, for example, Crowley’s Goetia, will only close you off from experiencing the many unique ways in which the demons may choose to communicate with you.

The demons may aid you in your studies in more ways than you may expect, but again I will say that you will learn and experience nothing until you work up the courage to buy a modern grimoire and perform an actual ritual seeking results. I have no doubt that you could conjure up a million or more questions of varying degrees of relevance all in an effort to avoid real magickal experience. Fear is something you will often work with in this magick, and overcoming your initial fear of entering into the magick is something that many do not achieve.

I will say it once more and leave it at that. There is a reason why practicing occultists often laugh at armchair magicians, especially the ones who proclaim to know so much about magick when in reality they live an extremely mundane life. You have the power to choose to make your life magickal. Do what you will.

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I took some offense from you post, but only because I knew you were right. Fear is an obstacle in all paths and to overcome it is to progress.

I’ve also given much thought into the psychology of the Goetia(I’m actually studying psychology) already, as I thought that the more you know about something, occultic or not, the better your chances are of success. However, I never saw it from this perspective and I think that you’re right. I was just considering whether or not I should practice magic once I’d thought about what you said.

In truth, Goetic rituals aren’t on the table for me right now for personal reasons I wish not to divulge. Regardless, I plan on doing them in the future and still wish to compose a complete works on the Goetia and it’s intriguing origins for academical reasons. Maybe that will change once I do summon a Goetic Demon.

I’d appreciate any suggestions. Really came here to BALG for the Goetia but I will acknowledge the experienced’s advice.

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Not sure goodess and childbirt. But asmodeus bael etc its gowtia from spain peopls running from tje inquisition bavk them
.and it was already witches in tis shipids. Besides the santeria and palo mayombe emigration in the 1970s. Old peopls in small towns have old books for generations anf tat names show up. Never see one. But their stories are credible. Goetia is in mexico. Way bfre crowley.

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The goetia is divide in a lot of parts cerempnial. Sigil and enns, and conjure depend who u bwlieve whit same purpose. Now the keys of salomon. Has diferent spirts. If u have a old american guy by joseph. I tnk he die years ago whit a bad attitude, tempers. To carl nagel. And brother butterball all difere. Now ask a italian guy such fluvio Randell .and amother tey are way diferent tradition. 2 o 3 hoetias all not clear backgrounds.

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If you are presently attending university, you should look into the religious studies department and other ones like it. Chances are there may be a couple classes that cover the occult to some extent. In my undergrad days I took a class about Greco-Roman magickal practices (that’s how I got my copy of the Greek Magical Papyri, read The Testament of Solomon too) (turns out in the old days too magicians were mostly hired for love spells and curses - the people want what they want), and another about Mesopotamian and other ancient Near-Eastern mythology. I would’ve taken some classes on Buddhism too if I had the time. Just be careful about what you say unless you want to spice up your reputation.

For help with your magickal practice, you should take cognitive and then social psychology, in that order. Honestly cognitive should be your very first class after intro regardless. These will provide a foundation for developing your “people skills.” If you are interested in pursuing research (you should be if you want to do a psych degree, don’t fucking half-ass your studies like a moron and end up with a mediocre life) then I suggest the demon Barbatos. Go to your professors’ office hours and ask a couple not completely stupid questions about their research (look at their lab website), listen to them, and you will have a ticket to a lab position, then a research mentor, then grad school. Apply yourself and, more importantly, support your actions with magick, and you may even find yourself at an elite institution rolling with the big boys and girls (and etc). Don’t be like the average psych student - do the goddamn readings, don’t be a fucking chump.

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I am speaking in this discussion because I have also read several books and grimoires, but I never went to practice because in the country where I live, Italy, I did not find teachers (Fulvio Rendhell ​​is very old) while grimoires are spread (see Legioni di Shaytan) whose authors modify the seals, present Belial as an unfair demon who wants animal sacrifices etc (and I refer to texts loved by our local satanists) BELIAL - Demoni.
After years of forgetting the magic, a few weeks ago I tried to contact Bune by reciting the hymn, burning a green candle and displaying the seal … it appeared to me in a dream as I have already told in the forum. So I came into contact with witches who, based on the spirit you want to evoke, create oils, incense / herbs, seals to wear, candles dedicated to the spirit etc and I hope to be able to establish a deeper contact with the Bune, and after with Buer and Gremory.

I take this opportunity to thank this forum for encouraging me to persevere and therefore to contact Bune.

In Italy (i also think in the Anglo-Saxon world) some decontextualize the Goetic demons who, in their opinion, do not belong to a single demonic hierarchy but belong to different astral planes: Buer and Bune belong to an elevated astral plane, while others like Gaap and Furfur could create problems because they belong to a lower astral plane. Thank you for any clarifications on this topic.

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I’m not in university unfortunately. And my plates full with chemistry, biology and psychology. I started a religious studies course last year but all it was about was Judeo-Christianity and Jesus, no other religion. The teacher didn’t even know a thing about Muslim or pagan religions so I decided to end it. I’m striving to be an oncologist, so I can’t be like the average student in any case. I will most likely go to a med school before uni to be honest, but I’ve bookmarked your post for future reference

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Avebune italia has good teachers. And one of the guys alistar give a goid clear explanation of goetia and dijijns too. You ever read his books. Amazing guy italian. His friend on social media are such goid knwlge too. Fluvio rendell in his book magia nera, and rosso is goid to explain things, not sure if he coauthor lilith la diosa del male. .besides antrodellamagiaforum. Goid place to learn. Alistar in his book. List a lot of clear explanation of goetia. And his goetia is a inside temple of orients star gruop uniqe gowtia based tradition. Atill around cheap. Or try ashifa obscura she knw goid teachers too.

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Can i ask you how do you know Italian reality so well?

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Adoro italian magick. Dluvio. Alistar, pascual. Kendra. Ashifa obscura and molti tanto authores. The guys of guida pratica. Dragon rouge. Etc.

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I came in contact with esotericists who prepare everything needed to evoke a goetic spirit (oils, herbs / incense, candles, pendants with the seal etc) and offer to follow you even after the evocation to make sure that you have come in contact with the demon and if he accepted your offer. All this at a great price and always replying to your emails … while the young lady who collaborates with Alistar, even according to the testimony of other people, often does not even respond to emails.

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Yes i knw her, not name droping. You have his goetiam books,? I do have the one whit dijin goetia mix. Can i pm some qestions. Of course magik qestions. He dnt answer bcse he has been treating by scamers bfre u have to be vwry very close to someone tat girl is his disciple ,and if knw her u are in hes very selective .his youtube videos are simple. And good. Due to italian magick water down lately not much is left good. Be copol to pm you thanks.

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It seems you want to be a scholar historian than a practitioner. Stephen skinner is such. So if you read his book. He’s done much of the research. The goetia of dr rudd.

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Maybe your country is different from mine, but in the US you can’t go to medical school before you complete an undergraduate degree and fulfill the pre-med requirements, and also take the MCAT. It doesn’t matter how much you may or may not actually know, that’s just how it is. I hear in some ways the UK is different, so if you’re from Europe or elsewhere the following may not be entirely accurate for you, but it will be close enough to be useful.

If you are serious about wanting to get an MD, then you should look into how you can first attend a 4-year undergraduate study program. If you haven’t taken college entrance exams, that is probably where you will need to start (magick’s gotten me out of doing a lot of that boring stuff, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do). I somehow did quite well on my exams despite being kinda depressed all through high school, and I went from an absolute steaming pile of dogshit (the history books were 10 years old and most of the teachers didn’t care about their students, but hey we bought a new football stadium!!!) to an elite university where most of the kids are rich (nothing wrong with that, just demographics), arrogant little pricks who can’t even fathom real adversity. Most of them hate our alma mater cause they’re salty they didn’t get into Harvard or Yale. I say this to hint at the potential social mobility that magick can grant you access to if you can pull your head out of your ass and do some research into how these things work.

Student loans are far from the most enticing thing in the world, but if you do become a medical doctor you shouldn’t have to worry much about your ability to pay off your debts over the long-term. You may not even need to take out loans if you can qualify for financial aid, and I know some MD programs have deals that you can cut where you work in some shithole (ahem, a rural and underprivileged area) for a couple years, and in exchange the school or government or something pays you off. No offence to those living in said shitholes if you’re doing it for the access to nature, as there are few things so great as looking up and seeing the stars.

I am taking time out of my day to write this because I want to help you if you actually mean what you say. I have said it before, and I will say it again - education is the golden key that unlocks opportunity and potential. Is it fair that the name of the institution where you received your education determines much about your future career prospects? Perhaps, perhaps not, but to deny this is to delude yourself into believing that the world is fair and just, and that everyone gets rewarded based on their merits.

Magick grants you the very real power to ascend the social ladder and to attain the life that you want. It will open opportunities for you that you would otherwise not have had access to. I have experienced this power for myself, and it is marvelous, but magick can do nothing if you are stuck in some fantasy-land (unless you’re a novelist) where you believe that you are just the smartest goddamn genius in the world whose brilliance is just waiting to be recognized while you take some online youtube classes and believe that will qualify you for medical school. It won’t, not on it’s own. You may very well be quite intelligent, but the university system is what it is, and if you want professional certification then you need to follow the process just like everyone else. Get into uni, get your bachelor’s, then get your graduate degree.

You should know that in some ways it pains me to write this. Pre-med students are some of the most pompous, egotistical, condescending little fuckers, rivaled in their douchebaggery and disrespect only by engineering students (don’t call yourself an engineer if you’re 19 and still in school, god fucking damn), and that’s coming from someone whose cardinal sin is Pride. Also, don’t become a psychiatrist. They’re fucking hacks who think that a biology degree and a couple years’ training somehow qualifies them for mental health care (yay lobotomies!). They’ve just been around for longer and control most of the research money. Get a Ph.D. or use the MD for actual medical work, like oncology or brain surgery or whatever.

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To summarize, you can be the #1 genius all you want collection information but without application of those knowledge in real society, you go nowhere. =o) Titles do help as that’s how society functions.