Genuinely curious: do you beliebe the spirits in the Goetia were invented with no prior basis in paganism whatsoever? Tbh this seems rather improbable given the Abrahamic religions’ (and those operating within their framework) habit of taking something pagan and manipulating it according to their agenda. Where do these spirits come from in your opinion?
2 Likes
I believe majority were an invention of demonization of the Gods but they are not the gods themselves. If these beings theoretically were the goetia than by that idea the goetia do not exist. These beings for the most part in my opinion are just that demons, no not the negative idea people constantly attach to demons. Sumerian demons were seen as messengers and punishers for the Gods. Demons are living beings too, it’s just people can’t seem to let go of the negative idea around them or view them lesser than other beings. I view the goetia no less than I view the gods simply another race, as I view deity as a race of beings as well.
The goetia to me are their own people, linked to the Gods due to the LHP for the most part. They may have been demonized but the names such as sitri, haagenti, etc weren’t created by the ones that demonized them it was created by someone(s) who opened themselves up to the goetia and got a name.
Many people have met the gods and the goetia at the same time and often times the excuse is “well they can show multiple aspects at the same time” which I find just an easy bandaid to cover denial.
The goetia are no less powerful just being themselves, they don’t need to be forced into being entities they’re not. Just as people try and built Lucifer up by saying he’s Loki, azazel, Prometheus, and so many others he’s not.
The Abrahamic faith did take and alter from older faiths but there’s no evidence that it was the goetia, there’s evidence that Greece tried to absorb and change the Egyptian Gods, but there’s no history of Set being Sitri, or Haagenti being Bastet, Shezmu was already a demon who was deified in Egyptian faith his place didn’t change really.
4 Likes
Thank you all for the responses!
I just made an introduction now.
There are three criteria of knowledge that I’m looking for: literal(Goetia, Sumerian/Accadian texts etc.), first hand experience(evocation of Sytri) and second hand information(your account of summoning Astaroth backfiring of Belial being surprisingly pleasant). In fact BALG is, to my knowledge, the best place for second hand knowledge of this sort and to receive you must first ask.
@dusk if I thought It doesn’t work, I’d never have put so much effort into studying it.
@zorrito Very interesting information on the enn’s. I knew that their use is more for reinforcement in the ritual than an integral part of it. As to the origins, I can’t say. The sigils appear to have Egyptian influence so I won’t throw away that idea just yet.
Some claim that reoccurring instances of some deities(such as Belial) in different historical texts were discovered independently from one another. So perhaps the enns come from a good source, but physical evidence of such origins has been lost/ not been discovered yet.
The Goetia is more of a recycled grimoire than anything, but finding the origins of its contents is tricky.
Good question, would like to see what people’s thoughts are🤔.
Personally, I can’t say. But with their loose origins all over the place, we could assume that they’re false being scattered as they are or we could consider that these beings have always been around and have appeared to humanity at different times in different forms with different names to suit their own agendas. IMHO, the best conjurer(even if that were supposedly King Solomon) could never truly comprehend beings who’ve lived as long and experienced as much as they have. Even a summoning doesn’t wholly bring forth their true being/form/nature, but rather an expression of the entitiy. Perhaps, the transmutation of the sigils could bring forth different expressions of the entity being summoned, manifestating them in a more physical/powerful/indepent form.
I must say my opinions are just guesses of one without experience, so I could be completely wrong.
1 Like
Here’s what I got from King Paimon directly (I work with Him a lot):
I think it’s pretty interesting, and at the time I asked Him I didn’t really have any opinion one way or another, just a faint inkling that the truth, as always, lies in the middle between “they’re not older gods” and “they’re all pagan gods mislabeled as demons”. The demon label, meaning “evil spirit”, is most definitely falsely attributed. They’re not all necessarily super friendly to humans, either. I think some (imo most of them, but I’m not here for a debate) have been derived from pagan origins, but may have been built upon so to speak (just as deities have been conflated into one that used to be seperate, creating a new deity that is, and yet is not, what it was before). I can completely accept the notion that these spirits are powerful enough as they are and needn’t be forced into the God category when that’s not what they are. But, imo anyway, just because we can’t find the links to pagan origins doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Just like saying spirit X is pagan god X doesn’t make it so either, and I do believe that any serious practicioner should always multiple-check their own bias and not get carried away with notions based on superficial parallels. Having said that, we’re talking about archetypes here that have been anthropomorphized to a degree, given various differing attributes depending on the culture. Each culture has their version of a sun god/dess, moon deities etc, which doesn’t mean that the Sumerian sun deity is the same as the Egyptian, for instance, but that they are different versions of the same archetype, each version being their own entity.
Another thing that’s important afaic is the fact that the Christian version of Lucifer, for example, that the Goetia talks about, is not the same as the pagan version of Lucifer (meaning the pagan god Phosphorus), who - correct me if I’m wrong - has nothing to do with Hell as it is described within the Abrahamic view. Then we’d be talking about two versions of the same spirit in this case. What happens - this is strictly theoretical speculation here - if, say, the “demonized” version of the pagan Lucifer began to take on the attributes of the “Lord of Hell” label put on Him by the Christians simply because so many people refer to Him as such and are no longer worshipping the pagan god? Does that mean that another Lucifer emerges from this “mix”? I’m not voicing an opinion here, it’s just a thought. It’s very interesting how the Goetia seems to come up with these spirits out of nowhere save from a few that can be identified with certainty. This does give rise to suspicions about their origin, which is why I can see where someone is coming from when they deny prior origins.
Edit to add: After writing this, I stumbled upon this image, which I think is so fitting to this theme:
Layers within layers within layers… On a side note, sometimes I get the feeling that the spirits get a kick out of gradually giving us glimpses of themselves, but never the whole picture.
4 Likes
@shinri you are 110% correct
However, as much as I’d love to, the Goetia isn’t going anywhere. While my education is top priority in my life right now, I’ve become enthralled by the Goetia and always find myself returning to it. Once my situation allows for it, I will most probably try summon Crocell or Purson first and maybe even dabble in other summonings and rituals.
Off topic, How do you think Goetic entities feel about a conjurer knowing about them in detail before summoning them? Pleased or indifferent? I think they don’t care, but it doesn’t hurt to ask
Haven’t read the entire thread so I will just say what my own research into this has led to. The spirit catalog comes from pseudomonarchia daemonum by Weyer. His source document was called Book of Offices of Spirits.
Weyer intentionally changed some things with the purpose of making things unusable. He stated as much. Comparing the two side by side, I can see that names have been changed in some cases and the hierarchy has been butchered beyond all recognition.
The compiler of the Goetia drew on a variety of sources , including Weyer, Agrippa, and Heptameron. Unfortunately, Weyer’s corruptions were left intact. As for arguments as to whether these spirits are pagan gods, look at their original names in the Book of offices and go from there.
1 Like
@Faustus Thank you for the input. I’m aware of Weyer’s alterations and have already researched the source materials you’ve mentioned. I briefly mentioned earlier in the thread that transmutation(probably the wrong term) of the sigils could bring about different effects.
In fact, some of the Goetic entities have different sigils in different editions of the Goetia but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they were corrupted for the purpose of making the sigil useless. Take Bathin for example. Google his sigil and go to images. There are 2 sigils, the one sigil has a trumpet, no crescent and the other has the crescent but no trumpet(along with some other changes). But they are nearly equal in number of appearances, leading me to think that they might both work. I’ve found 8 duplicates, explicitly of: Bathin, Leraie, Paimon, Beleth, Seere, Vual, Vepar and Bune. Bune’s are especially interesting in how drastic the differences are. Can anyone shed some light on the matter or give a link to a thread/s that does?
Acvording to mexican witches which goetia, was gain knowledge of them by Spain peopls back in the 16,century wen tey come to mexico. Mostly to make fortunes witches come hidden from the roman church harassment. Its why aodeus. Baphomet, astaroth are popular in mexico. But it not explain wjy so. Many witches of autentic covens for generations do no use goetia
Instead tey by 15,or 20 years old got back to europe to do fortune. After years of traing magick. Goetia is all over South America europe. Australia but not much in irak. Paquistan. Israel… Bxse tey have dijins. Elements etc.
I haven’t seen anything in the literary tradition that traces back to Spain or Mexico. Sounds more like folklore than something based on fact.
1 Like
I dont think there’s a history of the goetia within mexico, especially around the fact that witches in mexico regards have different origins one of which tied to one of the goddesses and childbirth, not really with the goetia.
The sigils were something unique to the Goetia and didn’t appear in either Pseudomonarchia or the Book of Offices. The variations were likely copyist errors rather than an attempt at corruption
1 Like
You can perform a ritual in complete silence without any fancy equipment if privacy is a concern for you. If you have time to read about magick, then I can guarantee that you have time to do magick.
Given the abundance of information available about the Goetia in works by modern authors, I think it would be wise to know of a demon’s powers prior to summoning them so that you may choose the demon who best fits your needs for a given situation. The demons will often appear in a form that is unique to you, if they choose to appear to you at all, and straining to create a specific form that you may have read about in, for example, Crowley’s Goetia, will only close you off from experiencing the many unique ways in which the demons may choose to communicate with you.
The demons may aid you in your studies in more ways than you may expect, but again I will say that you will learn and experience nothing until you work up the courage to buy a modern grimoire and perform an actual ritual seeking results. I have no doubt that you could conjure up a million or more questions of varying degrees of relevance all in an effort to avoid real magickal experience. Fear is something you will often work with in this magick, and overcoming your initial fear of entering into the magick is something that many do not achieve.
I will say it once more and leave it at that. There is a reason why practicing occultists often laugh at armchair magicians, especially the ones who proclaim to know so much about magick when in reality they live an extremely mundane life. You have the power to choose to make your life magickal. Do what you will.
1 Like
I took some offense from you post, but only because I knew you were right. Fear is an obstacle in all paths and to overcome it is to progress.
I’ve also given much thought into the psychology of the Goetia(I’m actually studying psychology) already, as I thought that the more you know about something, occultic or not, the better your chances are of success. However, I never saw it from this perspective and I think that you’re right. I was just considering whether or not I should practice magic once I’d thought about what you said.
In truth, Goetic rituals aren’t on the table for me right now for personal reasons I wish not to divulge. Regardless, I plan on doing them in the future and still wish to compose a complete works on the Goetia and it’s intriguing origins for academical reasons. Maybe that will change once I do summon a Goetic Demon.
I’d appreciate any suggestions. Really came here to BALG for the Goetia but I will acknowledge the experienced’s advice.
1 Like
Not sure goodess and childbirt. But asmodeus bael etc its gowtia from spain peopls running from tje inquisition bavk them
.and it was already witches in tis shipids. Besides the santeria and palo mayombe emigration in the 1970s. Old peopls in small towns have old books for generations anf tat names show up. Never see one. But their stories are credible. Goetia is in mexico. Way bfre crowley.
The goetia is divide in a lot of parts cerempnial. Sigil and enns, and conjure depend who u bwlieve whit same purpose. Now the keys of salomon. Has diferent spirts. If u have a old american guy by joseph. I tnk he die years ago whit a bad attitude, tempers. To carl nagel. And brother butterball all difere. Now ask a italian guy such fluvio Randell .and amother tey are way diferent tradition. 2 o 3 hoetias all not clear backgrounds.
1 Like
If you are presently attending university, you should look into the religious studies department and other ones like it. Chances are there may be a couple classes that cover the occult to some extent. In my undergrad days I took a class about Greco-Roman magickal practices (that’s how I got my copy of the Greek Magical Papyri, read The Testament of Solomon too) (turns out in the old days too magicians were mostly hired for love spells and curses - the people want what they want), and another about Mesopotamian and other ancient Near-Eastern mythology. I would’ve taken some classes on Buddhism too if I had the time. Just be careful about what you say unless you want to spice up your reputation.
For help with your magickal practice, you should take cognitive and then social psychology, in that order. Honestly cognitive should be your very first class after intro regardless. These will provide a foundation for developing your “people skills.” If you are interested in pursuing research (you should be if you want to do a psych degree, don’t fucking half-ass your studies like a moron and end up with a mediocre life) then I suggest the demon Barbatos. Go to your professors’ office hours and ask a couple not completely stupid questions about their research (look at their lab website), listen to them, and you will have a ticket to a lab position, then a research mentor, then grad school. Apply yourself and, more importantly, support your actions with magick, and you may even find yourself at an elite institution rolling with the big boys and girls (and etc). Don’t be like the average psych student - do the goddamn readings, don’t be a fucking chump.
I am speaking in this discussion because I have also read several books and grimoires, but I never went to practice because in the country where I live, Italy, I did not find teachers (Fulvio Rendhell is very old) while grimoires are spread (see Legioni di Shaytan) whose authors modify the seals, present Belial as an unfair demon who wants animal sacrifices etc (and I refer to texts loved by our local satanists) BELIAL - Demoni.
After years of forgetting the magic, a few weeks ago I tried to contact Bune by reciting the hymn, burning a green candle and displaying the seal … it appeared to me in a dream as I have already told in the forum. So I came into contact with witches who, based on the spirit you want to evoke, create oils, incense / herbs, seals to wear, candles dedicated to the spirit etc and I hope to be able to establish a deeper contact with the Bune, and after with Buer and Gremory.
I take this opportunity to thank this forum for encouraging me to persevere and therefore to contact Bune.
In Italy (i also think in the Anglo-Saxon world) some decontextualize the Goetic demons who, in their opinion, do not belong to a single demonic hierarchy but belong to different astral planes: Buer and Bune belong to an elevated astral plane, while others like Gaap and Furfur could create problems because they belong to a lower astral plane. Thank you for any clarifications on this topic.
I’m not in university unfortunately. And my plates full with chemistry, biology and psychology. I started a religious studies course last year but all it was about was Judeo-Christianity and Jesus, no other religion. The teacher didn’t even know a thing about Muslim or pagan religions so I decided to end it. I’m striving to be an oncologist, so I can’t be like the average student in any case. I will most likely go to a med school before uni to be honest, but I’ve bookmarked your post for future reference
1 Like