That’s fascinating, keep it up. Great post!
Yeah I don’t think I have either…
Sorry on my earlier post I meant “serve” humanity, not “self” too late to edit it.
Edit: Infact I said “self” twice wtf? Am I stupid lol!? =P
I personally haven’t worked with demons yet; However, i plan to and i’ve to approach them with a teamwork perspective. Idk. That’s what my intuition is telling me personally to do. This topic is definitely needed @shinri . Thanks for not only opening the discussion but also giving your insight, as well as bringing up these issues that many (esp. Newbies) aren’t aware of.
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I think that’s a good way to go about this. Being the leader of a team does not mean that you bully around your teammates. Being the leader means that you set the vision of what you want to collectively accomplish, align your followers on your vision, and then work in cooperation to bring it into manifestation.
The best leaders are the ones who know how to bring out the best in those that follow them. They don’t push down their followers, but uplift them. They listen to their people and consider that they may be more wise in ways than they are. They don’t breathe down their necks, but give them the space to do what they do.
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I can’t add much to this except to say that we have no fucking power over demons at all, and if you think you do, you’re being toyed with. That’s why we have to fuck around w/ the LOA/ manifestation, and all that…
They may be obligated to come and listen, but I’m not a millionaire or a porn star yet, so to think they are obligated to do my bidding is preposterous. Even some of the plausible requests I’ve petitioned for have not been granted.
Then I sit around and come up with reasons why they didn’t. “I forgot this” or “the candle went out,”…or the wind blew, or the request was implausible…whatev.
I’m also confident that they don’t THINK like humans and therefore their values and desires aren’t human- at least not the ones w/ power.
Working with Belial has been eye opening. The rules of this game/ war are becoming clear.
Belial is about rebellion and mutiny. Against what I don’t know, but I have an idea. I think we all do. The more followers he gathers, the closer he gets to fulfillment of that rebellion and mutiny and the realization of an infernal uprising.
My question to myself is, “am I up for it?” Am I in on this. I am undecided, but I know my path leads straight back to him every time. And every time I get more comfortable with the risks and terms.
I’ll leave that train of thought and the role of ascension for you to ponder. It’s personal.
*These angels and demons have worked together and existed together for a long time (again, the limits of my rational/ linear mind keep me imprisoned here) Hint…they know each other!
*If you buy the role that envy played in the fall, and even if you not rooted in Judeo Christian mythology, you know that on some level, the satisfaction of the senses/ desires (Arjuna/ Buddha) has proven to be perhaps the most sought after commodity in our history (substitute any you want or all) and a problem too…but again for another time.
That’s the irony AND the power rolled up in one. We consider a warm slice of NY pizza as a right/ an entitlement - not that big a deal. Sex too…demons can only experience that through us.
Like Winterfeld says, a tart lemon is an extremely powerful sensory experience for them. I need to get grateful for shit like that and what it means to be alive!
That’s the power we have. The fucking human experience that I bitch and complain about on some level every day. We got it, they want it.
There is a way to call a demon and state a request with power and dignity without being a dick. It’s a balance- a balance Winterfeld actually touches on if you read closely and actually reflect on the black parts of the pages in the book.
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Well you certainly are welcome to your beliefs.
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Uhhhh sigh…I don’t know about this. In a sense you’re right we don’t have the ability to control other people or beings but we CAN STRONGLY encourage them… I feel that building bridges and friendships is best approach to working with the spirits.
I feel like every other magician does lol that the way I practice Goetia is “the right way”. That being said I’d like to say there are many ways and schools of thought regarding how to practice Goetia and how to interact with the demons. Some beg and grovel, some act like they are God to these spirits, I personally have a policy of building friendships with the Spirits. I recognize my own divinty and embrace the authority this gives me but I treat the demons with courtesy and respect and generosity. Perhaps too much generousity at times I’m told. I’m very effective with the Goetic spirits and I credit that to my approach. I try to make agreements that everyone is satisfied with. This gets me the results I need.
There is an author by the pen name Ophiel and he once said that any philosophy is only as good as the results it produces. If it doesn’t actually work it needs to go into the garbage can. I agree with this.
This isn’t to say I have a 100% batting average either. I have failures and fizzles too. However Im mostly successful with my work and that to me is validation that I’m doing it the right way.
I do think @56cpdb is right that the spirits value the sensory experience they can have through us and the through interacting in our lives. This is a great motivator for them.
@shinri made a comment earlier in the post I liked which states something to the effect of her life is proof that her methods work. She has what she wants and needs and is getting the results that matter.
That’s where the rubber meets the road, results.
All relationships have three elements in them.
Like, Trust, and Respect. When you have this with a spirit I find your much more likely to get success out of your evocation. I personally practice introductory rites to get to know spirits before I start asking for favors. This way when I do need them it’s like going to a friend for help with something they’re known for doing anyway.
So to sum this up yes it’s important for the magician to be the boss in the relationship ( if your not the boss in the relationship you’ve got serious problems) and to recognize his or her divinity and the authority that comes with that but to also treat the spirits the right way.
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While true, I think it’s more that people request the demon for help in an authoritative way where they are sure in what they want.
Not so much actually commanding though I do personally dislike using the term commanding when it’s not really commanding. Because they still have the free will to say fuck you lol.
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I’d say Banishing is mostly just a concern if you practice Ceremonial Magick. If you practice from the GoM books, there is really no need to banish. From the experience of myself and practically everyone else who has worked with their works, it is extremely clean and always attracts the right spirit, and does not open you up to other beings. Now, the Ceremonial Magick rituals on the other hand. They light you up like a beacon.
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Yes, this is very true.
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Very true, from my own experience as well. I worked with a certain Name of God to recieve insight on the power to command spirits, and that is essentially the conclusion I have come to. It’s very simple, it’s simply speaking politely with respect, but certainty. As in, you give your request seriously and without doubt that they will fulfil it. It can be a little annoying if someone asks you to do something and then constantly wonders and doubts if you’ll do it.
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Damn it’s difficult to explain “commanding” in words… no wonder there is so much confusion over it. But yes currently I don’t think you can “command” angels or demons like that to do something, maybe this will change over time, I don’t know, I haven’t looked deeply into it. But even in the traditional sources, it’s not really you commanding them, it’s more like you are asking their commander to command them for you. In the Lamegeton, it suggests that if they don’t show up, you ask the demon commanding them to send them to you. And of course, you ultimately ask “God” to command them for you, with force, but the Lamegeton also reaffirms their free will.
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I like talking about magick, but magickal truths are not revealed through argumentation. The only way to know is to do magick.
Many approaches to magick work. What is exactly what one person needs may not work at all for someone else. If magick gives you what you want, with respect to the long-term and short-term of your life, then it sounds like magick is working for you.
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“While true, I think it’s more that people request the demon for help in an authoritative way where they are sure in what they want.“
Such a great point Velenos
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I find after the conjuration of evocation the spirit will straight up ask me “what do you want?” " Why are you calling to me?"
When I make a charge to the spirit I’m making a strongly worded request that assumes the spirit will comply. I make my requests laced with as much passion and desire as I can. This plus having a decent relationship with the spirit I find is more than enough. Having a spirit that aligns with what you’re trying to achieve is very important too. It also matters because each spirit has thier own M.O. for how they manifest things.
For example the way Queen Beleth manifests romance is quite different than the results you’ll get with Prince Sitri.
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Love what you said…what works for me is a business mentality. I don’t command, they’re not my friends…I negotiate for an outcome. Probably to a fault…
I don’t trust people I do “business” with until I know them within the context of the business we do. This works for me-
Some (Belial/ Vine) it’s a little more nuanced; a lot more nuanced actually. This is why I put a lot of thought and emphasis into my offering to them as well as what I need to see to know the deal’s done.
This is an excellent post and has yielded awesome conversation!
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Works for me too! We magicians need to recognize the value of what we’re offering to the spirits. We’re making an exchange with them, and a fair exchange is no robbery.
You’re right great conversation.
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Yeah, and if you wanna see some crazy shit, blindfold yourself and start chanting Belial’s enn! He may show, he may not…but some crazy ass parasites/ energies will 
I tend to think of him as a great white whale of sorts…a lot hangers on that either he doesn’t know about or doesn’t care about
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I’ve been reading Peterson’s Lesser Key of Solomon this week to get a foundation but it is not very palpable. I sighed and felt like giving up last night. I asked Prince Orobas, “Has anyone written a Goetia Without Tears” yet? He laughed and said he would lead me to some better material. I then found Winterfield’s book last night. After reading a sample, I purchased the Kindle version and I felt like I was back in the saddle again. I also bought Awakening Lucifer. Then I stumbeled upon your post today and that validated to me that Im on the right track.
Thank you so much for making this post. Its so helpful to me, along with all the contributing comments of the other members.
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