My question is related to thought form creation.
I am wondering which is a more powerful and effective way of creating thought forms into existence in commanding them who they are and what powers to have.
Should one say “you are to be?”
Telling them what they should be working towards…
Or… should one simply say “you are” in present tense saying it’s is already done?
Either works, both are “powerful” and effective, thoughtforms are simply astral manifestations of the mind so in short what matters is your belief in them since they require attention to stay “alive”
their abilities will usually be what you already know how to do, everything else you send them to do and they will learn to do and develop it.
Cool so “You are to be” then essentially is best, you would say?
That works yes.
I think both of these are good in different ways.
When I created my servitors, I gave them certain powers depending on why I wanted to create that servitor. I have a servitor that aids me with my magick in various ways, for example. My original intent was for her to bring me tools that could aid me in my magick. She has since grown, and provides me with many books and sources of information that assist me. I have another servitor dedicated to my dream practice. They have manifested a number of dream characters, whom I have met in the dream world. The most recent one I have met is the Armourer. Someone else in the dream asked him to make some combat fatigues, but he said that he only works for me and looked me straight in the eye. I instantly became lucid.
When I create servitors, I assign them specific powers that they already have while leaving open the possibility for them to grow and develop new powers and abilities.
The “you are to be” bit I think is useful if you want to acknowledge that you have a certain level of skill or are in a certain place but are intending to grow or move to a more desirable position. Some occultists are afraid of even mentioning the future in their rituals because they think that mentioning the future will lock whatever results they are after into a permanent state of “future manifestation,” meaning that they will never happen because they are always “in the future.” I think it is good to acknowledge where you are now and then tell the spirits where you want to be. Be wary of denying yourself the opportunity to realize that you already have what you want, but I also think it good to not delude yourself into believing a false reality.
Yeah I would love more thought on the present tense.
I noticed when speaking to demons in present tense they have a shocking reaction to it, as if they believe it has already happened. I can’t believe these beings to not be thought forms, so I am wondering how it would work in initial programming.
Not to be rude, but I’m not sure if you’re asking me another question, so I’ll suggest two books I find helpful on this subject - Magickal Servitors by Damon Brand and The Masterworks of Chaos Magick by Adam Blackthorne.
I think genuine, ancient demonic spirits tend to be more powerful than what I would call a thoughtform. Servitors have been quite effective for me, and maybe if I went deep with that sort of magick I’d discover new things, but demons have always done more for me than simply manifest some cash or mind-control or get me laid or whatever. They have taken me on journeys of transformation where my life and personality changes in hugely significant and beneficial ways.
If you want to say that demons are simply creations of the human mind, I don’t entirely disagree, but the difference to me is that thoughtforms are intentionally created and are relatively limited in their scope of power whereas demons connected with humans. I believe that thoughtforms are also created unintentionally by repeated feedings of attention and perhaps emotion, and you could say that demons were created in a similar manner.
Personally, and my views on this tend to change as I experience more magick, I would currently say that demons predate the existence of humans and so could not have been born from them. I believe that the various traditions of magick that you find around the world were given to humanity by demons and other spirits as a way of connecting with them. Is “Lucifer” as old as existence? I would say that the underlying energy that in one way presents itself as Lucifer is as old as existence, and that this energy gave itself form as Lucifer so that those who do magick can connect with and better understand this energy, or force, or consciousness, or being, whatever you want to call it.
What was it of your experiences that makes you think they predate existence?
It’s unlikely that demons predate existence, demons are “younger” than the notable Primordial Gods who were said to predate creation, but the concept of source(s) is that source split itself and became the various entities and such within that existence/source’s creation, of course it’s unlikely that each fragment took form at the same “time” and simply took form as each various entities were born.
Lucifer for example can be either born or created from his Father Yahweh, Thanatos was “born” from his mother Nyx, Nyx was formed from the Primordial Khaos, so on and so forth in various forms of how creation can come to be, but I don’t think most entities came at or before the dawn of creation like Primordial Deities and some other entities like voidlings.
Just to be clear, I said they have existed from the beginning of existence, not before it. Predating existence would mean existing when nothing exists, which wouldn’t make sense. Unless you want to say that before the beginning of what we currently think of as the universe there was another universe which ended, and after that universe ended our universe began. I’m certainly not a theoretical physicist, but from what I’ve heard some believe that this is a possibility - that our Big Bang is not the only Big Bang. Some believe there will eventually be a “Big Crunch” or some similar event which marks the end of the universe as we know it. It is interesting because a fundamental idea in many religions is that everything is impermanent, and yet existence is eternal. Oh, the irony.
Also, I would consider Lucifer to be a “primordial.” Lucifer, Leviathan, Satan, and Belial (whom I believe can be thought of as the Behemoth), who represent Air, Water, Fire, and Earth respectively in the demonic magick found in Buch Abramelin have, in my experience, an existence which feels very ancient, though Lucifer magick has a certain young feeling to it. And to @anon48079295, this may not be a very popular opinion, but from my experience I would not say that Lucifer was born of Yahweh. The myth of the Fall from Heaven is well known, but it seems to me that Lucifer is their own independent existence which does not rely on God. I could go on about this for some time, but here I will say something that I was often told - all colors exist under Lucifer.
It’s more that the first mention of Lucifer is christianity, but the first mention of Yahweh is his original lore, Lucifer being an angel he was part of the heavenly hosts, quite possibly the unnamed heavenly hosts of Yahweh when he was a Canannite Deity.
However, it would make sense as before creation Void/Khaos was said to exist and in each lore the various voids/chaos existed Tiamat, Nun, Khaos, so on and so forth and the void was both everything and nothing yet but Lucifer himself is not the same force as they are.
It’s fine to have an “unpopular opinion” but I think you might have it mistaken, none of the angels existence rely on Yahweh, a God can create but doesn’t mean what it creates relies on them. Lucifer was born or created like any other angel, demon, yokai, etc. He has family and it’s unlikely that he just poofed into existence on his own.
Lucifer is often times elevated simply because his connection to Yahweh is rejected due to Yahweh being absorbed by christianity but Yahweh expands to Canaanite/Mesopotamia, and so does his heavenly hosts Michael, Gabriel, Lucifer, Zadkiel, and so forth.
They are very ancient but how do we know they are independent beings that came about by themselves and without the aid of humans? They certainly come across more powerful than your average thought forms but they do eat souls from time to time over several hundred years. @shinri
I think people are often confused on what a thoughtform is, thoughtforms cannot consume souls, they have no energy body, nor do they have a soul themselves (unless their creator fragments their own soul and give it to them but then they cease to be a thoughtform). Thoughtforms are astral manifestations of those who create them.
They cannot leave the astral besides through the collective unconscious which allows them to manifest through the senses of the individual, while a real entity does not come from the astral nor require your mentalscape to manifest like thoughtforms do.
A thoughtform requires attention to survive and will go to great lengths to keep itself memorable, while a real entity’s power isn’t defined by attention but by their own practice and development.
The way I see it, beings such as angels, which in mythological stories are said to be created by God, are emanations or aspects of the “higher” or more fundamental being which they emanate from or were created by. What that means, to my understanding, is that these beings, in this example angels, are individuated slices of powers and qualities of the more fundamental being, which in this case is God/Yahweh/Source/Tetragrammaton/whatever.
I believe that these angels “rely” on God in the sense that they are powers of God manifested into more discrete forms that make it possible to understand what these powers are capable of and to work with them in a practical way to change reality. In all the angel magick that I work with, names of God are used as a way to access and summon the power of the angels. If you don’t use the Godnames then you may still get something to come through, but to me that’s like trying to turn on a lightbulb when the power is switched off in the breaker.
I think the reason people sometimes find magick disappointing is because they try to chant an angel name or a demon name without anything else, or perhaps with an “enn” or some other questionable incantation that fails to connect them to the underlying energy of magick that empowers all forms of magick, whatever the illusory aesthetics of that magick may be.
I’m not an expert on Canaanite mythology, but from what I’ve read of this and other “Near Eastern” or “the general area of Mesopotamia” or whatever it is that people call this region (“the biblical world” doesn’t seem entirely accurate), I do not recall Yahweh ever being mentioned. The only time I’ve heard the word “Yahweh” being used is by modern Christian Protestant denominations and by people here who hate Christianity. I certainly have my problems with Christianity and the shit it infects the world with, though this is as much the fault of your average Christian as the Holocaust was of the average German. I’ve heard of Hebrew Godnames like El also being spirits in some pantheons, perhaps Caananite or other closely related pantheons, don’t recall the exact details so really I’m just kind of spewing shit without referencing any primary sources or works done by trained scholars, which I most certainly am not, who have studied those sources.
I think the myths tend to serve a purpose in that they help magicians understand the insights that the spirits have to give. I do not believe Lucifer was created by any “Yahweh.” I think “Yahweh” is about as useful and specific a term as “Protestant.” That’s why I believe all the Christians praying to “God” don’t manifest anything or tap into any real magickal power. Aside from their lack of basic occult techniques, they are praying to some vague being made up by religious authority figures and tainted with all the biases that these figures impose upon spiritual teachings. Church is mostly not even about spirituality at all, it’s about getting politics shoved down your throat in the guise of religion.
Again, though, I may as well just be making all this shit up. Here are some books for anyone interested in mythology. It is far from comprehensive.
The Harps that Once - Sumerian Poetry in Translation by Thorkild Jacobsen. Works and Days by Hesiod (rando Greek one by it’s on the bookshelf). Stories from Ancient Canaan, Second Edition by Michael Coogan and Mark Smith. Hittite Myths, Second Edition by Harry Hoffner Jr. Other notable works would be The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Enuma Elish. There are many other stories I’ve read but got through sources that are paywalled and difficult to access other than through a university.
If you can find a single mention of “Yahweh” in there please correct my misremembering. I’m not trying to be a shithead and I’m also really not trying to argue on the internet. I enjoy talking about the occult though. The last time I was active here I’d see a post every other day with something like “Is Inanna really Loki???” and “My UPG is that Metatron is actually Agares but the JCI larpers turned the badass demon into an angel” and it’s pretty annoying seeing really dumb misconceptions spread around.
I just know what I believe was revealed to me through the practice of magick. Summoning Lucifer manifested many results in my life and changed my understanding of occult reality.
I don’t really know what you mean by “eating souls from time to time.” I don’t know what you mean by a soul nor what eating one would entail.
It starts to get tricky when talking about the occult because there are the historical aspects of things, like the spiritual and religious traditions of various cultures which we have records of and can study, and then there are the mystical revelations themselves that can only come through direct experience of magick.
I don’t mean to talk down to you, so if I’m doing that then please just ignore me, but I’d encourage you to spend less time on the internet asking other people of questionable experience and attainment, which absolutely includes me, various questions about magick and the spirits that may very well be unanswerable or just straight-up nonsensical and instead do some magick. To me, doing magick is far more enjoyable than talking about magick, and doing magick to get results is far more enjoyable than speculating on mystical/supernatural topics. I enjoy the insights when I get them, but seeking them out tends to make you delusional or makes you miss them when they do come. Or maybe they never come because you spend all your time on the internet instead of spending time with your magick.