Wiccan compared/contrasted to witchcraft?

I recently went to an occult shop. A worker there described herself as a witch but not a wiccan. For some reason I had it in my head that they were the same thing. Is being a wiccan a subset of a larger group known as wiccans?


A witch can be a term used to describe anyone that practices magick or witchcraft. In a way, we are actually considered witches here on this forum. So witch is really a term that describes a magickal practitioner although it becomes confusing because wiccans and pagans also practice magick so they also have the right to call themselves witches if they please.

However, wicca is a religion. It is a more modernized form of paganism without the blood rites, minus any selfish self-gain magick they see that could potentially cause harm to another person even if unintentional. They also have a set of rules they live by known as the wicca creed (do as ye will so long as ye harm none) is one of the rules of that creed. They took the term (my will be done and as I will it so shall it be) and made their own version shortening it to “so mote it be”. They are also the ones that prefer to use the terms merry meet as a greeting and either blessed be or merry ye part as a way to end a conversation.

So wicca is really a modern form of paganism minus anything they consider to be dark or LHP based as traditional paganism is actually rather dark. But there are some extra things they added in to make wicca more customized. Wiccans are those who practice wicca. In modern day, the term witch is more often used to describe someone who practices magick but does not identify as either a wiccan or a pagan or anything else like satanic witch, Luciferian, etc. It can mean either an RHP or an LHP practitioner that really has no chosen or set path that they adhere to on a regular basis, hence the terms white witch and dark witch. Mostly, ecclectic practitioners use this term but those who associate more with RHP white based magick tend to use the term just a witch (or white witch) and those who associate more with LHP black magick tend to use the term just a magician/sorcerer (or dark witch).

But these terms can be identified in multiple ways. Everyone has their own beliefs of what should be labeled as what which only further confuses the terms.


I was typing as Raven posted, so I deleted my post since she covered it nicely. I won’t put words in the mouth of the woman you spoke to, so my advice would be to ask her how she defines witch. You’ll find many who practice the occult arts use many terms interchangeably, and others have their strict definitions of those same terms. I simply refer to myself as an occultist. If I call myself an aspiring magician, people think I sit around practicing pulling rabbits out of a hat and working on card tricks. If I call myself a witch (or warlock) most will assume I’m a wiccan or neopagan. I would guess she is a female magician who is a solo practitioner, with no affiliation to any standardized system, like many of us here. But again, you should ask her.

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So to further elaborate on what I said, as I know this can be confusing.

A witch who practices magick but adheres to the laws of the religion known as Wicca=
a Wiccan or a group of Wiccans

Someone who practices Paganism=
a Pagan

Someone who practices Dianic witchcraft=
a Dianic witch

Someone who practices Alexandrian witchcraft=
an Alexandrian witch

Someone who practices Gardnerian witchcraft=
a Gardnerian witch

and so on… while

Someone who is ecclectic and practices a little of every type of RHP white based magick such as a mixture of Alexandrian, Faerie, Wicca, Gardnerian, angel evocation, some parts of Paganism and so forth= is an ecclectic witch known as a white witch

Someone who is also ecclectic but mixes darker forms of Paganism, Norse witchcraft, Italian witchcraft, Celtic magick and so forth= is an ecclectic witch known as a dark witch

Those who are also ecclectic but hate the idea of separating or labeling people based on what type of magick they perform (as in white or black) or those who just loathe and despise the terms white and black magick (and there are MANY) will refer to themselves as simply a witch, nothing more nothing less.

The following (below) is left for your own personal interpretations and this is where it gets really confusing:

Those of us here on this forum that are ecclectic and do a bit of everything both RHP and LHP based would normally also be known as just witches or dark witches but we also incorporate black magick, demonology, Voodoo, Santeria, into our paths so most of us here use the term LHP magician, black magician, or black sorcerer, even though most of us here do not work with strictly black magick, the term black magician tends to help others identify the differences that we also work with demons and more ancient forms of baneful magick, when the term dark witch usually just makes you think of someone who practices dark witchcraft but is not willing to be dark enough to include Voodoo, Santeria, curses, blood rites (some combination of that) or is too afraid to work with demons or dismisses them as being fake but this is not always the case. There are many very dark practitioners who curse people to death, drink blood, make human sacrifices but call themselves dark witches as well. So this is why it can be so confusing and leaves room for debate based on personal opinions.

Either way, all of us here on this forum, we are technically still a form of witches.


I’m not a witch. I don’t have the hat. Or the warts. I do have a black cat, but she’s not scary. Well, if you piss her off, she actually is somewhat scary. Mostly she’s just a big fluffy ball of affection.

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I agree with that one. I don’t consider myself a witch either but for arguments sake I included that in my previous posts because there are many that don’t care about specific labels. They see that we do magick here on this forum so to them, either way we are a witch whether we like that term or not. LOL

I am ecclectic, I have no specific chosen path as I enjoy magick too much to limit myself like that but most of my magick is more self-centered (raises hand and smiles “guilty!”) so I prefer the term black magician or black sorcerer. I use the term black to emphasize that most of the spells and ritual I do are dark in some way, even the RHP magick I incorporate into my path, I can turn it into something dark that’s no longer recognizable as something that came from a white magick website or RHP book. LOL, shame on me!

And I don’t know, the term sorcerer just sounds so mysterious and enchanting as compared to magician because, when I think of magician I immediately think of some goofball like Penn and Teller in a black formal wear suit doing card tricks and making things disappear, but the term sorcerer makes me think of someone in a dark crypt sitting at a desk with a human skull topped by a live raven using an old ink-well style pen to scribble cunningly evil spells into his age old grimoire made of faded parchment, while vials of potions simmer and bubble behind him at his chemistry table (more like Merlin the wizard I guess).

And don’t get me wrong, I freaking LOVE Penn and Teller!

In the 90’s I took part into witchcraft practices. in the beginning our rituals were based on those presented in Margaret Murray’s books. We had our own framework, we developed our own exclusive practices to rise power. After some time we evolved to something more comprehensive as Wicca. Unfortunately due to life changes our coven broke up. I think I will never forget those impressive rituals, there was real power in them.


The O.N.A. uses and is based upon an old form of paganism. It could be charactised as a form of witchcraft, although the O.N.A. added much to the earlier teachings, but you can still find these, if you look. Very different from modern day, Crowley influenced Wicca.



I had a black cat a long time ago and liked her but she shed like crazy and everything had black fur all over it. Post-cat life is cleaner

What is O.N.A?

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Order of Nine Angles


A Wiccan is one type of witch! There are so many paths in Paganism & Witchcraft it’s self that there are many types of witches on different paths.

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I learnt two really important aspects of Magick from reading and applying the teachings of the O.N.A. There’s currently a lot of O.N.A. material available on-line. I haven’t studied it all. I got into their early stuff half-heartedly back in the late 1990s, just after I got a computer and started using the internet. Later I studied it. The most important thing I learnt was from their mythology. Whether that mythos is true or not doesn’t matter. The O.N.A. admits this.

According to the O.N.A. their history is a dark, rural English paganism. They have published stories set in this time. One thing that struck me was the poverty of the Middle Ages when compared to today. Another was the inherent dirtiness - people smelt really bad. Theirs isn’t High (ceremonial) Magick conducted in a castle with expensive incense, adorned robes, banners and lots of the correctly coloured candles. Theirs was a use what’s to hand, do it in the open Magick. Coming from a ceremonial Magick background this really made a big impact upon me.

The big problem with High Magick is all of the complications, which are there for very important reasons. At the time I was using Chaos Magic which is a lot simpler. Nonetheless, O.N.A. Magick worked on an even more mundane, rustic level – farm tools, open fires, stone circles, quartz and simple, natural incense. I decided to apply their approach and it worked.

The O.N.A. was heavily influenced by Chaos Magic, but I only discovered this later. The point is, I realised that as Satan is ‘the God of this world’ all of this world is Satan’s temple. At that point I understood that I could perform Magick with what I had – anywhere. You don’t need an expensive crystal ball - I have one that I can’t use anyway – when you have a (dedicated) bowl filled with water, a little black fountain pen ink and perhaps a candle (of any colour, although my experience is that electric-blue coloured candles are great general purpose ones for the lhp).

Sure, I’ve got my own Magickal weapons, but as I don’t carry these with me when I leave home I’ve learnt to use what’s to hand. A pen works well as a Wand. A pocket knife as a Sword. A coin as a Pentacle. A disposal cup as a Chalice (not that I use a Chalice much). Magickal weapons are representations. Get your head around that and they don’t matter all that much any more. So what I’m suggesting is, although it’s important to have ‘proper’ Magick weapons for training purposes, after you use these and get the hang of what they’re about you don’t actually need them. I’ve posted The 4 Laws of the Sphinx about Magickal weapons… Fuck me – when I was a ceremonial Magician I tried to make my own Lotus Wand. Do some research on how fucking hard it is to construct a fucking Lotus Wand. That’s why I never finished it.

So imagine yourself as a poor Medieval Magician and try working from that base. If you live in an apartment – that is your cave. Make your own incense with barks, flowers and resins. It’ll be more powerful that way. Indeed, all of your Magick will be without the expensive hassles (which, I stress again, are there for a purpose). I have a black, Grim Reaper robe, but when I perform Magick I do it in what I’m dressed in – normal cloths, just like a Medieval Magician in the O.N.A. mythologies would.

Magick is a whole lot better without the hassles, but I’m glad I learnt a strict ceremonial approach as it helped me when I defenestrated it.


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O.N.A. National Socialist Magick: The Whys & Wherefores!

The O.N.A. is National Socialist. They have adopted political, Magickal and spiritual National Socialism. They also admit - somewhere or other - that if they existed within a National Socialist/Fascist environment they may well be ardent communists. They use National Socialism to effectively alienate themselves from the herd and the herd from them. It’s their tool. Alienation is of extreme importance to and on our path.

Just before she died, Rosaleen Norton said it beautifully; “I came into the world bravely; I’ll go out bravely.” That is my intention. When you die it’s just you, baby! My Magickal teacher knew Roie Norton and possessed one of her paintings, which was hung at the Order’s meeting room.

I have been accused - not on these forums, I don’t think, not yet anyway - of being a National Socialist. As a hard-line and doctrinaire (lunatic) Libertarian this amuses me. (Also of being a Jewish homosexual. On about three real life occasions I’ve been called a gay, Jewish Nazi; but only once of being a Renaissance man! That’s really fucked up.) National Socialism works, just not effectively and nowhere near as effectively as freedom under Libertarianism (which isn’t perfect, just better than anything else). National Socialism is better than communism, like being shot dead is better than being kicked to death. That said, everyone knows Hitler started WWII by invading Poland, but hardly anyone knows why? The records of the League of Nations from a few weeks before the 1st of September, 1939 make interesting reading. Then there’s the newspapers. The borders of Germany and Poland changed after WWI. Hitler begged the League to act. When the League refused, Hitler acted. He did it because of his humanity, even ordered that the German film of the Polish atrocities be edited as he didn’t want to have that material seen by the general population, especially women and children.

From October 1928 to at least the 30th of January, 1933 Hitler’s two largest donors were two Jewish bankers: see Heinrich Brüning’s letter to Churchill of 28th of August, 1937. Hitler invaded the U.S.S.R. and had lightning speed success because the Soviets were all in offensive positions ready to invade Europe. Hitler had no choice but to declare a two-front war. Try thinking through the implications of a Soviet invasion of Europe in the middle of 1941.

O.N.A. Magick works because it’s brutal. They also stress the importance of Magickal repetition to alter the Morphic field. So do I. To the best of my knowledge they are the only lhp organisation to stress chant. So do I. I’ve used both and both work very effectively – on a number of levels, which you’ll discover.

I highly recommend Codex Saerus, at least for starters, but there’s a lot more.
Selected writings of David Myatt are also available. Myatt is a great Magician, to whom I doff my hat.

I also recommend Liber Null & Psychonaut by Peter James Carroll. (Skip the boring bits, then re-read the whole work.) P.J. Carroll is a very great Magician. As a lhp man I don’t bow, but I would to Carroll. I knew all the stuff, but it only worked after Liber Null & Psychonaut.

George Lincoln Rockwell. There’s film and writings. Rockwell will give you a feel for (neo-)National Socialism while Savitri Devi is great for spiritual Hitlerism.

The Church of Satan by Michael Aquino, particularly the Appendices – which I consider priceless. Many lifetimes of Magickal work contained therein.

For A New Liberty by Murray Newton Rothbard. This book altered me and my life irrevocably. This book will destroy whatever your current politics. In about 1982 or ‘83 I read it twice – back to back. First time it really screwed me. Second time it completely fucked me over. I’ve been a lonely political outcast ever since. The left and the right hate me. Even normal people do. So you owe it to yourself both politically and spiritually. Seriously!


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I read a book, I can’t remember what book, in which the author proposes there are as many “witchcrafts” as cultures around the globe. He says witchcraft is a common phenomenon in each and every culture and it has to do with opposing the code of ethics of established religion, kind of a spiritual “disjecta membra”. So it is a polar phenomenon and witchcraft needs a established religion to exist, without religion to oppose it wouldn’t exist. But nowadays there is an attempt to transform this broad phenomenon into one single movement.