Why nothing works?

I’ve been trying to come up with something helpful - it appears to me that you, and perhaps a few others who’ve been getting frustrated recently, are applying theories based on science, in which a like action MUST lead to a like verifiable result (in other words, cause and effect MUST be replicable, or else they’re invalid) whilst neglecting to apply scientific methods of cumulative growth, research, study, and learning to yourself.

You expect (I don’t mean this in a disrespectful way) that if you, for example, cast a spell using the same methods used by someone else, that it must either work 100% effectively for you as well, or fail, in which case that proves that the spell is never going to be effective for you (and may in fact be bunkum, with other people’s supposed successes being down to coincidence).

So you’re applying the canons of physical science to magick, but in an incomplete manner.

Because what you’re NOT doing, is applying similar rigour to yourself - there, you’re indulging in literal “magical thinking” by expecting your results as a relative neophyte to match those of advanced magicians who’ve brought years of practice, pacts with spirits, plus internal changes like self-belief and faith in the process to every bit of work they touch.

You don’t NEED years of experience etc to get results, but you do need the internal alchemy they yield, which afaik is part of what the stuff E.A. teaches is for - conferring that alchemy gained through experience and practice in a condensed version, with the mistakes and non-essentials trimmed out, and with the core stripped down for anyone to take on board.

Right now, it seems to me that you’re not seeing the operator/magician as a crucial tool in the operation of magic, but are treating the work like a science student in a lab - two physical chemicals will react in the same way for a 1st year student or a Nobel Laureate, after all.

So this is just a matter of remembering that the definition of magick is “the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will” - and that therefore, the magician is a crucial part of the process, and in this case like actions won’t create like results when the magician is at a different place with regards to things like focus, belief, self-belief, and all other factors that can have an effect on the ability of their Will to manifest change.

In other words, the scientific model CAN be applied to magick, but it must apply equally to the magician himself because his Will is poart of the equation, and in some respects that’s where it more closely resembles art, in which the vision, preferences, innate skills etc of the individual will affect their output and influence the route they take.

In all cases (science, magick, creative art) practice makes for better results, and in all cases to throw things over as failures when you’re not even aware of the principles which have made them successful for other people would be a waste and a crime against yourself, robbing yourself of the things you hoped to achieve when you started down this path.

So, don’t give up, and don’t fall for the Harry Potter myth of some people just being BORN to magick, but neither should you expect to get the same results as another more experienced person, until you too have honed the tools of your mind and spirit in a manner comparable to their work - a process which is more about making the right internal shifts than slogging away for years, so don’t despair! :slight_smile:

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Guys i still practicing my evocations and today during an evocation rather curious step, a swirl of smoke of incense was first towards my face every time that said “come, come… are you here?” and second made a pact with the two spirits that evokes with the words “Alash Tad Al - Ash Tal Ashtu” then a chill ranged throughout my body… then i heard in my mind “we accept”.

So far i had obvious and quick results only after raising the feeling of authority to command the entities to do the task.I’ve tried many times to be gentle or even to beg them to send me something and the results were very slow and not what i wanted.This feeling can be obtained with the bornless ritual or some other form of divinity invocation.I’ve tried to scream at them,to be angry,to be gentle,to whisper, to go deep in trance and command them from there,etc.

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You’re right dron, when you are friendly many times they do not answer :confused:

At least we’re learning through our failures.I wanted to jump staight for what is worth and works,but now i’m realizing that first i have to face failure in order to get there.It’s frustrating, but in the end is a very important lesson.Knowing what doesn’t work for you,is the only way to find what works.

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Like Pom and Eva said, stick with it and keep truckin’. But I left the forum for a tad and when I finally logged back in I have seen a few threads similar to this. No results. This is just my opinion, but here it is: energy work. If you are just starting out this is the biggest help. If you can’t feel, work with, see or manipulate your own energy, then you are pissing up a rope (pissing up a rope is a redneck phrase for a pointless endeavor). I recommend Robert Bruce’s book, as I always do. It’s easy to work with, quick to learn, and effective and to the point. In order to work with energetic bodies or spirits, and good foundation in energy work is invaluable. How many people are on this forum that have never had a successful evocation. And how many use energy work? My guess is only a few if any. I can’t speak for those on here with success, except for myself, and for 15 years I have found energy work to be one of the most valuable tools I have for interacting with spirits. Again, just my opinion, but it has always shown me massive benefit.

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Evocation is the love of my life. I am married to the essence of the arte. A passion and drive to come to know more which goes to show me that I know nothing at all. The ultimate paradox and gateway to occult power. Way awesome.

Finiz,
You’re letting the monkey mind come into play because you’re in a state of consciousness and not awareness. When your conscious, you’re judging, criticising and letting the past or future intervene simply because you’re analysing. Try to just accept what you are doing and absorb yourself in the proceedings. This keeps the mind in the present and opens the ‘valve’
When this happens the ritual no longer is static and monotonous, it comes alive and takes on a dynamic appeal, which allows you to connect with it. Imagine a child playing as hes very much alive and totally engrossed in what he’s doing, he’s very much in a state of awareness. Imagine then that you shout him over and ask him something, he will start to THINK, decipher, judge maybe and generally be in a state of consciousness – his ‘valve’ will now be closed and his logical mind will be active. Open the valve and be aware………this is something which needs discussing on here more as it’s an essential state of mind for success in ritual magic. Hope this helps buddy……….

Thank you Savodonger, that’s help me a lot :slight_smile:

Just for emphasis- I want to copy from above- good pt…

[quote=“savodonger, post:28, topic:4519”]Imagine a child playing as hes very much alive and totally engrossed in what he’s doing, he’s very much in a state of awareness.
Imagine then that you shout him over and ask him something, he will start to THINK, decipher, judge maybe and generally be in a state of consciousness – his ‘valve’ will now be closed and his logical mind will be active.
Open the valve and be aware………

this is something which needs discussing on here more as it’s an essential state of mind for success in ritual magic.[/quote]

also if you shout over and ask something, let alone shout-at… “Hey! listen… concentrate.” (the valve in one’s own mind… or “the valve in the Entity” … thus the approach of “shout at the Entity”…

just in case adds- thought I’d add a couple of comments I wrote elsewhere- relates at all? adds? either way- seeds planted.
-nice thread after all, Finiz (a type of magickal seeding… not the “do something” some like the “every act is magic” or else “only thoughts are magic”)

but how some-things grow “as if” with a life of their own…
***
now Seed a different-kind of whorl (situation/circumstances, that grow/devel as this thread did…)

anyway…

[url=http://becomealivinggod.com/forum/mastering-evocation-omnipotence/my-daemonic-child-conception/msg57309/#msg57309]http://becomealivinggod.com/forum/mastering-evocation-omnipotence/my-daemonic-child-conception/msg57309/#msg57309[/url]


[url=http://becomealivinggod.com/forum/general-discussion/robert-bruce’s-ink-mark-treatment/msg57304/#msg57304]http://becomealivinggod.com/forum/general-discussion/robert-bruce’s-ink-mark-treatment/msg57304/#msg57304[/url]

[url=http://becomealivinggod.com/forum/mastering-evocation-omnipotence/on-the-baron-deprince’s-water/msg56979/#msg56979]http://becomealivinggod.com/forum/mastering-evocation-omnipotence/on-the-baron-deprince’s-water/msg56979/#msg56979[/url]

luck

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reading the valve- be aware… reminded me of the wisdom of the experts that say: rather than the old phrase (don’t just stand there- do something.) referencing the power of Observation.

[  -which, from Systema I was taught of a Russian concept- don't know the word, meaning being busy... activity, "not as a good thing".. vs definitive 'acting"  ... which likely requires waiting_ painfully, in need, for the appropriate-fit.    ie vs "English" where staying busy, or acting, is always "a good thing".. vs delay.. just counter-intuit from the word itself. ]

Wisdom from certain experts- "Don't 'just do something'... stand there."

[ie beyond what that may seem obviously, as experts- in this case Billionaires… see things differently… -the Power of Magick being how things change by merely looking at them. Observation- without “intent” to affect- merely supporting as Witness…]

 *gee this last pt was a quick short-Knowing.. but putting it into words is so much longer- seemed it was a quick aside.  -seems my mind ops that way more, or else the important stuff is soo different from cultural-known, that all the usually assumes are different..
if you can make a 2-3 sentence "explanation" I think one is either agree/disagree/supporting another comment (thus little tweaks), and/or it is something only a bit different than the person-on-the-street does/thinks      (as the language we use, meanings known, is our culture..  different capacities, diff-world-view)...  thus light a candle and connect through that to another Energy (if that is understood- common language, it is what it is.. but layered within that are many changes needed in understanding what that means= a completely different "action" and yet..)    -my view is that pt is part of devel as well.

^ As I had a major “download/upgrade” for me the last couple of days, so this push as an attempt, feeble as it is, to try and pass along as repmt to my Ally/Contacts ^ :slight_smile:

I go for this effect:

Under certain conditions, people’s experiences are optimal. Csikszentmihalyi (1975, 1997) and his colleagues, Rathunde, Whalen and Nakamura, defined optimal experiences as those that were accompanied by a merging of action and awareness, strong concentration on the task at hand, and a loss of awareness of time. At such times, people concentrate so hard on the current task that they forget about time and the world around them: They are thoroughly engrossed. Further, these activities are accompanied by positive emotions. They termed this quality of experience “flow.”

[url=http://www.education.com/reference/article/flow-theory/]http://www.education.com/reference/article/flow-theory/[/url]

Its sacred (imo) and I evoke it when I cook, clean, teach, hike, sculpt, paint, crochet… If flow trance must be interrupted (very rare, I think), it is in the most gentle and polite manner possible. Particularly, for young people.

Well said, it is an essential foundation stone in my experience; because without it, your house will collapse before you’ve put the roof on…

I would like to pick up on this point by Pom Draconis, and I think it was also implied in Lady Eva’s mega-list of ‘how to be a demon sorceress’ (page 1 of this thread) > once again, its one of those factors that is there in your face but no one says much about it (the elephant in the room). It is difficult to explain metaphysically why as a practising magician ‘you should keep ya gob shut’ but I can certainly explain it through psychology.

There is no doubt about it, you can try really hard in life, have a good attitude and use the best strategies available but when the subconscious mind is pulling in a different direction to your conscious desires, then this will only result in failure, delayed progress and frustration. Many conflicts start as you can imagine in your younger years. They are a result of bad associations and confusion occurring, which activates the survival instinct of your subconscious mind to try and protect you.

Imagine when you were a child and you may have seen your mother upset trying to make ends meet because of a lack of money. Your mind would have immediately associated this with money. This situation is not the fault of money, just a lack of it. Now imagine another scenario where you ask your dad for some money and he almost bites your head off because he’s trying to save it for the pub that night. Once again there’s a bad situation happened and it’s to do with a lack of money, not truly the fault of money though?

Many situations can occur like this and when you get older and try making money for yourself you can imagine what your deeper mind will make of this…….It will try and SUCCEED in stopping you heading towards money because of the bad associations you incurred from all those years ago. It will stop you dead in your tracks because it’s trying to protect you from harm. The same situation will happen whenever you encounter something that causes fear and confusion from the past, niggling concerns and worries will be evoked which will end up stopping any progress. Once again, your mind is just trying to protect you because of the survival instinct within it. Your subconscious mind hates to change its preset path because it likes to know what to expect, this makes it feel more safe and secure.

Making a ‘verbal statement of intent’ can therefore invoke this mental reluctance and recalcitrance to engage. It will either promote the opposite to happen, or just stop you dead in your tracks. Inferiority can also be the culprit here as the person is trying to prove a point that their life is going somewhere for a change as nothing has happened for a long time, and the more he or she talks about these desires, the more things will tend to stay the same (subconscious recalcitrance due to survival). The other reason for keeping quiet is to stop people interfering and sabotaging your progress because of their own jealousy or envy. Such are the reasons as to why it is wise to keep your mouth shut and tell no one about your plans.

I truly hate to bring psychology into metaphysics (read my 'Introduce yourself to members of the forum-page 15) as the two mixed can cause bloody chaos to erupt in the mind…but over years of experience in both magic and psychology, it is inevitable that these two paths will collide from time to time…safe journeys.

Shoot… Psychology is integral to metaphysics in my book. I almost whent back to college for more info in regard to psychology. Stuck with nursing instead. Had to be sure I could put food on the plate. Not sure of projected success in psychology.

I just say this because psychology causes (especially students) to over analyze everything and magic demands a more open state of awareness, where anything is possible on the planes of existence. I think people think too-much and when its time to truly think…then they don’t think at all.

This is a really good point. The first thing my abnormal psych instructor warned us about was trying to diagnose ourselves/friends/family. Everything operates on poorly understood continua. The whole point is identifying patterns/systems with which to work and gain understanding.

I think, though, as a student, emotional analysis (judgement) is used rather than detatched and balanced understanding of hypothesis and theory. Also skepticism allows perspective modification when new information is uncovered.

This is just my opinion, of course, but the less attachment, particularly emotional, to any idea (since psychology is more a statistical pseudoscience in myriad areas, much like economics, and sociology) backed heavily by a majority of people, the better. After all, there is general species adaptation and individual adaptation rarely fits neatly into any perceived category.

Anyway, most people I have met are in a deeply ingrained habit of doing as they are told and believe learning to be difficult drudgery because they were forced to learn shit that did not interest them, paying real attention and trusting themselves (love/delight/excitement/flow) happened rarely. One of the big concepts I worked on as a software end-user trainer was that if the audience isn’t engaged/fascinated/engrossed, they cannot learn. We also have a steep “forgetting curve” for inapplicable data. So, continual sifting through the staggering amount of information available seems an insurmountable task and unpleasant chore most people prefer to avoid. Non-thinking, or circular thinking is less threatening as new information never has to penetrate a seemingly static worldview. Its fascinating talking to people who don’t “believe in” astrology, psychology, etc., because they don’t see the relevance of that field of study to their personal story. Or people into metaphysics who assume the physical sciences (like biology, or nutrition, or physics) are uninteresting and irrelevant.

Somewhere or other in the BoA there is mention of unattached analysis of data during a state of awareness I’ve yet to attain, which sounds glorious. That means energy work. And its making revisiting electrodynamics soooo much more engaging and fun than my first go 'round 8 years ago.

Something about G.I. Joe …knowing is half the battle.

Yes i know what you mean HJo, I need to read that book again as it was gripping…

Something that seems crazy but isn’t - check your posture.

Slouching, shoulders rolled forwards, hunched over a keyboard or tablet a lot of the day, or over a phone - this is not good.

That link above has a video linked of Amy Cuddy talking about the importance of body language, and mentions a study that showed good posture actually reduces the stress hormone cortisol and increases testosterone, which btw boosts female sex drive, so this one isn’t just for the lovely lads!

And your body language doesn’t just talk to other people - it quietly talks to YOU about who you are, how to feel, and what your life’s all about.

I made a note to go on my monitor and keyboard about this recently, and a good thing to be aware of at all times, but eespecially when you’re trying for a breakthrough in some area of your life.

[quote=“Lady Eva, post:38, topic:4519”]Something that seems crazy but isn’t - check your posture.

Slouching, shoulders rolled forwards, hunched over a keyboard or tablet a lot of the day, or over a phone - this is not good.

That link above has a video linked of Amy Cuddy talking about the importance of body language, and mentions a study that showed good posture actually reduces the stress hormone cortisol and increases testosterone, which btw boosts female sex drive, so this one isn’t just for the lovely lads![/quote]

^YES! Huge huge huge! This is why I meditate in Reclining Goddess or Corpse pose. Before I was flexible enough to sit in lotus position, I kept cutting off my air supply, and getting back aches by hunching. Now, I’m used to it, so its more like cruise control; I can focus on breathing and moving energy about without also a concern for staying in a relaxed posture.

My manager enforced good posture for us office monkeys trying to keep us happy and productive before she left to become a yoga instructor. Cortisol also retards memory retention, interferes with sleep (theta & delta state) and learning. Probably why in some seminar or other, E.A. mentioned that its worth the time it takes to relax every part of the body. Nothing like forgetting your epiphany… or slouching and cutting off circulation.

This is a big, and interesting concept, on a few levels…

[quote=“hJo, post:39, topic:4519”]Nothing like forgetting your epiphany…[/quote] at least I’ve seen how often the Ahas can be more likely to fade by the more impact they have on us… weird (yeah- cog dissonance, and homeostatic response, etc.)
More so the more important a change= the more different (incremental is easier to integrate… in the world-view I have = small steps… exponential or ‘geometric’ gains can’t fit = back to the ‘drawing-board’ so to speak).

 ..relate to business-studies that a significant jump is 'actually easier' than incremental change (getting involvement, engagement, integration, etc.)   (as Dan Sullivan's saying 10times increase is easier than 2times, let alone 10%... even though counter-intuitive, or rather counter to our culture)... and if we are dealing "outside of our 'culture' anyway" (as occult is hidden/concealed= not obvious...


relating to epiphany: the foundational principle/inquiry of one group- “Who do you listen to?” (By their fruits you shall know them… and all that- the proof is in the pudding… not that undemonstrated isn’t capable, but unknown…
-what have you seen another do- that started out “where you are/were” and “how you are” (your style)… and is now where you want to go…? Having the steps to success in a skill you want, but the person doing started out in a different place than you are/were… or is just ‘different’ somehow… let alone, do they have the actual skill to teach (or do)…

…this relates even more so to one you work-with… (whether a person- human, or an Entity, or even just a type of Energy)… what are they capable of? (one may make a “phone call” and not connect ~broken phone or incorrect# etc… but you may connect (phone or via “sigil” etc…) and ‘they aren’t home’ or ‘don’t like you’ :slight_smile: … but you may connect and they want to help… but it isn’t something they can do…

  more so than the "areas of skills" -also level of capacity to act in the world  (say my prior ex of Bank Mngr, or the local fixer, vs some guy you meet in local bar...  the guy in the bar may say yeah sure I'll help- but has the ability?   -may open the sigil, and get a response, but who-actually is connected to?   
if you get a sense of contact, movement in the room, and perhaps in response to your Request... only thoughts arise, theories develop: Spirits can only affect the mind-thoughts... or sometimes they dont' do anything...   (who have you contacted?  -who do you listen to?)

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Ken Roberts quote: “Noone knows what you think they know.” (ex the RealEstate courses sold- proof they are successfully, they have money- but how much is from RE and how much from selling the courses? at least lately? -LawofAttraction is much like this, re teachers of)…

also- Noone knows what they think they know… in terms of what actually works, for an expert, is little ‘automatic’ and (to them) self-evident “duh-obvious” concepts… so obvious to them they are uncon and unnoticed (the structural things they do differently, they wouldn’t even know to say, as they just do them)… whether a sport/musical playing coord, craft-skill, knowledge… occult-

   and often you ask an expert (the better they are, ie world-class, the more this is so, just not 'good at it') what they do, they'll try and answer- may be totally off though  

(for ex- NLP development… watching and seeing… what was ‘actually’ done, and each of those experts thought the ‘important steps’ where other things…)

Who do you listen to? Noone knows what you think (what it seems that they know)… and “experts” (by definition) are less aware of the more important steps… and oft comeup with ‘helpful’ (but not the foundational important steps todo)

 [also Getting to Know- how do you  'read' get a vibe.. of a person, or an Entity (looking at, sense- through a sigil- before open.. what it is like?   like before open a door to a restaurant or a shop.. do you have a feel?   -learn to sense/listen/even "scan"  before open.. ]
  thus, in steps, get a feel as get-to-know (not all at once, not just "get in business/sign a contract/make an agreement-parntership" and then see.. before then have a feel, gradually refined, can they "do" (and they are evaluating you the same way)... again: whether in life-people (business or 'personal-friends') but also magic-Entities/Allies.. contacts...