Why does it seem magicians enjoy disagreeing so much?

This is intended to be a lighthearted topic.

( When I say magician here I mean, witch, practicioner, whatever you identify yourself as, whatever)

My question I rhetorically pose here is why are magicians seemingly so disagreeable? Is disagreement a time honored tradition for us?

Is it simply a part of our training to pick things apart looking for subtle truths and to reject what isn’t?

Do we simply like disagreeing with eachother on everything from semantic, to legends, to technique?

Share your thoughts and experiences on the art of occult disagreement.

For myself I think it’s just a natural way that we magicians communicate with eachother sometimes. I have disagreements with alot of what I read and hear and sometimes even with the views of practioners I respect greatly.

I try not to take disagreements too seriously or personally. In fact I’ve learned where I was incorrect or mistaken on many things through disagreement, so to me there’s value in it.

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To be honest, and I guess I’m being disagreeable here :smiley: I hadn’t noticed anyone being particularly disagreeable, more than some sites, and not as much as others. But disagreeing doesn’t have to mean being disagreeable, so maybe that’s not what you meant.

This being a discussion forum, if we all saw things the same way and every topic was a bunch of people just chiming in or hitting the like button, it would be a lot more boring. :slight_smile: But we’re not usually rude about it.

So, disagreement is fine and dandy, imo. Personally, there isn’t a single person on this planet (or off it) I agree with 100 percent. Even my favorite authors, even mystics who have achieved higher levels of consciousness than I, I disagree on some aspect with all of them.

I think as we’re all operating individual vehicles that are extremely complex and very finely tuned, and in addition are entering the Age of Aquarius, and are working through a lot of very Luciferic and feminine energy that represents freedom in opposition to control, this is not just normal, it’s how it naturally would be at this time.

In this case, extreme control, uniform, conforming and Piscean energy is kind of old fashioned and unhelpful for a spirit that needs to progress through these energies at this time. Disagreeing and independence of thought is a good thing. I don’t think it’s particularly a mages thing, though, it’s an all humanity thing.

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I think it’s partly because you have to be a bit rogue to go down the path to begin with. Arguably, it’s reinforced with lessons from the spirits to “Command” and being forced to take control of your life. They’ll test you to force you into standing up to them and others. All parts of the package.

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Yeah I’ve seen other occult forums, I don’t think we disagree more often or more rudely than other places do. I think we just kind of like debating things here and there are a WIDE variety of opinions on different subjects.

@norse900 talked about this,

I really think this true of LHP or even MP practioners. Most of us have had to rebel against or turn away from the spiritual conditioning we received as children. For myself I was always this way even as a small child. I knew the JCI faith that I was learning wasn’t for me. Round peg in a square hole type of dynamic.

Maybe many of as rebels and mavericks from the get go and that can make us disagree on things more frequently. I’m not exactly sure.

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I feel that. My personality makes it that I just ignore the things I’m not into. JCI didn’t make sense, nobody could explain the gaping holes in the philosophy, they called me wicked if I asked, and I could viscerally feel the emptiness filled by the yearning of many humans that just wanted to belong. Churches have such a weird energy like that, a mix of extreme and slightly forced, insistent love, abandoned fervour, covering a slight suppressed disappointment and lonliness, from all the ones that think the others much be connected, but they’re not, and they’re alone. (They’re not)

But I follow the Taoist view that fighting something acknowledges it has power over you worth fighting in the first place, and therefore by fighting it you magically speaking give it that power and make it stronger. I try not to do that, it’s not my way, so I don’t “rebel”, because I don’t see anything worth rebelling against. That gives it all too much credit.

What I do see worth pursing is curiosity about how everything works. So I guess my reasons for disagreement are less about a learned pattern of being and more about explaining the conclusions my curiosity has led me to so far. If I’m still on the fence I’m looking for new opinions, great, then I’m knocking back and forth ideas and that’s cool.

I actually dislike debate though, I’m not interested in persuading people to my point of view, I see no point in this, as eventually, what someone else thinks isn’t my business. So if I’ve formed a solid opinion and someone has asked, I tend to offer it but then move on. They will do with that what they will.

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It seems most magicians become very strong willed down the path of magick, seemingly no matter the tradition (or at least for western traditions. I haven’t met many eastern magicians).

I think this is particularly true with our modern methods and approach to magick. People mostly approach it as “I want to control my reality!”. I’ve gone through that kind of power delusion at the start of my journey, I think most go through it, and I have first hand seen how destructive it can be one someone’s life from another magician. It leads to a harsh lesson after which you hopefully humble yourself, otherwise you’re going to have serious troubles.

It’s quite possible magicians from earlier times also went through this issue, particularly those coming from less exalted backgrounds, as the texts written by them have this sort of power fantasy somewhat apparent in the text. For more exalted texts, they tend to have a greater focus on philosophy and wisdom, and this was written by the magicians who truly excelled in society, performing works that now would be considered miraculous.

So, I would say it’s just this strong will that comes from the way many approach magick that leads to thinking “No! They are wrong. My methods are right and superior”. At other times, it’s simply because they just really want to believe the ideas they have developed.

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It’s because, at the end of the day, we’re all human, and humans are a disagreeable lot :joy:

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Ain’t that the truth

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@Dankquanicus you probably don’t remember this but when we first met here on Balg I found myself constantly being corrected by you on things. Small things usually details. :man_facepalming:t3: :rofl::rofl:The thing was you were always right about whatever you did point out ( I checked) and I began to realize that you really do know your stuff and we became friends.

So disagreeing isn’t always a bad thing, sometimes you even make friends or gain respect for others differing views from it.

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Respectful disagreements, that maintain the right of the other party to have their own views, are excellent. The problem arises when person have not integrated the above. For the folks that fall into the role-play to much, they fall into an ego-trap.

“How dare you not accept that everything from a tree to a hair on my ass is Lucifer.” I think most people agree, the minute a person starts blabbing about The Ultimate Truth TM*, they are essentially walking in a circle.

It’s obscenely comical that a person, with a brain, that uses this culture, time and place to orient onself, dares to think they have The Ultimate Truth. Like hypothetical occult-bro, do you know how many people claim to have the Ultimate Occult Truth?
kendrick-lamar-sit-down

I think respectful disagreements are like sparring in a boxing arena. If you are grown enough to take it, you grow. Fire refines or burns the edgy weaklings.

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Imo it’s human nature my friend.

As long as the witches (or whatever title is preferred for them in your theoretical scenario) are humans human nature comes into play. It’s human nature to like to debate and/or dispute a difference of opinion .

Humans are a competitive species after all and debates/disputes are in essence a type of competition (if it involves the right people, people disposed to compete to win). In such situations neither wants to lose So the debate and or dispute to win (as opposed to just agreeing to disagree).

Add: I like the was @SilentSeeker said it better then how I did. Good explanation btw.

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I think it’s because magick is such an experimental art also, not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I think the power elite benefits a lot from internal divisions within magickal circles.

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There’s a lot of different ideas out there, magick is personal, everyone forms their own viewpoints, and people take on different ideas based on different circumstances. Magick is not an exact science, so it’s harder to pin everything down exactly if you’re the average magician.

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Because we all are adversarial asf

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wrong

…Sorry, couldn’t resist :laughing:

I do actually disagree with this premise though (funnily enough, lending evidence to your argument), because…

There are as many magickal traditions as stars in the sky. People find the path that suits them best. If they disagree with someone else, it’s usually a matter of paradigm. I don’t think that equates with any magickal practitioner being inherently contrary or disagreeable. Correlation, not causation, or whatever.

For example, I see a lot of people who refuse to work with angels or to use the names of YHVH. That’s their right to do so; it doesn’t affect me personally so I’m not going to jump on someone and try and correct them as though my viewpoint is superior.

The only times I can think of that I’ve really outright rejected anyone else’s viewpoint (giving more credence to your argument :melting_face: ) is if they (1) let slip some (usually political-ish) opinion I find personally distasteful or abhorrent, (2) if it’s someone who comes to BALG expecting this to be a safe space where everyone enthusiastically agrees with everything they say, and they feel personally attacked by neutral or constructive criticism, or (3) someone who comes to BALG acting as though their praxis is the One True Way :tm: and everyone else’s paradigm is garbage.

But, I try and stay out of those. Except #1 when I get really heated. Then I flag my own post and move on.

…Hmm, looks like I forgot which side of the argument I’m on, here. :sweat_smile:

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Honestly I think culture has a lot to do with this. Most of the things I notice huge disagreements on come down to where the person is coming from and what they were or weren’t taught.

Take some of my work for example, I never mean to start an argument, but I will absolutely disagree that anyone needs a human initiation to work with any spirit.

I’m not saying those can’t be valid, truly life changing experiences- but I have expressed many times the spirits come to us, and just because we don’t have the right heritage this time, doesn’t mean we don’t have it in a past life or a preexisting arrangement or relationship with these entities.

I also think that as we become stronger and more self empowered that it gets noticed, and that will bring in some of these situations where entities outside of our purview wish to work with us.

Back to the topic, a lot of these people believe these things because that’s what they’ve been taught, so thusly what they will experience and often don’t even realize they’ve taken their magic so deep down the religion hole, that the very spirits they think are helping them, just kinda use them like meat bags. Easy meal when you believe you have to do certain religious things all the time to avoid the wrath or gain the favor of some entity.

It’s not much different than a Christian struggling with the good and evil thing imop, just different subject matter.

The other thing I think we forget is that a lot of this is subjective. I’ve built my personal beliefs about the source and all other entities based largely upon personal experience, which can be dangerous so I try to keep those things to myself. But I have come across authors and others alike that have come to a similar conclusion, despite the fact I hadn’t read or seen it until well after I decided I figured it out.

In this way, magic is more like our best friend, our lover, our child- whoever that one person is that you’d defend with your life- whether or not we comprehend what’s really going on or just think we do. (For example, the things you’d think your kids will never do…reality may astound you).

I don’t know if I make sense, but when we make things ours and begin to feel confident in what we do, we also have a tendency to limit what we are willing to consider that falls outside of how we think things should work.

For example our housemate told me he thought it felt like cheating on the source to go to lesser entities.

I explained that I view all those lesser gods as being the sources offspring- all the different pantheons of gods- all siblings, and then I explained my view in that.

My siblings and I live in different regions, we are better at different things. If you want to build an animated game, talk my brother. Want a knit sweater? That’s me. Someone to have a good time with, that doesn’t care about appearances? That’s my sister. We all have different strengths and weakness’s and these things differ betwixt us and even are different from our parents, even those of us with both the same parents. There are things I am better at than my parents were and visa Versa.

Doesn’t this mean, (in the discussion with our housemate) that if you belief it all came from the same origin, (he does) that going to the one whose developed a skill beyond that of the origins effort to that skill… actually makes sense?

At any rate sorry for the long story, the point was he walked away mind blown at what he’d never considered and wondering if he was missing something- because of a similar type discussion/debate/disagreement.

These things are not bad in my open if we are able to keep an open mind and remember where the person we are debating with is coming from (sometimes that’s the arm chair and that should be accounted for too…) because we can grow, learn and sometimes see a new perspective, or even an old one, with fresh eyes.

Knowing someone else did something different than you that worked, doesn’t invalidate your work. That’s another reason people get emotional over these discussions, the differences can make us feel like the other person is ripping us apart, even if they are only like nah man, it doesn’t have to be that complicated…

It means there’s more than one way to skin a cat, and even if it challenges your beliefs, is it really so awful to realize that you personally might not have it all right, particularly when you know what you believed or were taught before- that surely wasn’t right either…:joy:

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It’s because everyone wants to be the smartest and most powerful magician in the room lol

I don’t think disagreeing is the problem but more so the underlying self identification magicians form with the knowledge they attain, it doesn’t make them better or less than another, it’s the illusion of hierarchy

Like bruh, most magicians get into magick to fill a void, to bring power to their powerlessness, if those underlying issues are left unchecked and unattended then it will only create more toxicity in the persons psyche, magick isn’t a way out of personal suffering even though it helps with so many things, it cannot change the fact that we are still human and have emotions and internal issues that’s why it’s always advised in the ancient mystery schools to never learn from the ego, to carry a spirit of brotherhood and to practice magick from a stable mind and decent mental health

A lot of magicians neglect their relationship with their inner child and their heart so naturally the head and the ego gets overinflated with mental masturbation on books, knowledge and a lust for magickal power over their helplessness and most of the time others as well

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I’m never looking to be the smartest in the room. I always look for someone more knowledgeable to learn from. Me personally I am absolutely ok with being wrong, to me It’s exciting finding out I’m incorrect in my thinking process. At that moment I am being illuminated to new thought processes and ways of understand. At that moment I am growing and outgrowing previous beliefs. It’s this type of growth that keeps me coming back.

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Yeah there are a few like you, I’m just talking about the majority here

Let me share something I wrote a few weeks ago, I was saving it for my past life journal but…

I think it applies here. Maybe more so than there.

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