Why does everyone say contradictory things all the time?

Everyone says different things all the time. I don’t even know what to believe…Like, I can find 10 different theories on Yaweh, Christianity or life in general. And they all sound very pertinent.

You have people that tell you “oh no just gaze at the demon’s sigil, that’s evokation, works well” and grimoires that actually say that some demons NEED to be compelled to the magician’s will or else…

Another important point is that this demon requires offerings and gifts in order to bend to the will of the conjuror. The demon is also inherently untruthful and must be compelled to tell the truth under threat of divine names.

It’s very confusing when so many people trivialize magickal practices like spirits summoning when another large part of people is pretty serious about it. (It’s like the difference between BALG and wizardforums.com)

Every time I want to work outside of my field of power I encounter this obstacle of reading 5481975 differents things at the same time. And don’t even know what to do anymore.

Worse, there are also instances of entities saying totally different things from different summoners.

:sweat_smile: good grief. Hello The Truth ? Can ya speak to me please ?

EDIT: Thanks @Lady_Eva for correcting the typo. Much appreciated :blush:.

6 Likes

that’s because with magic their is no absolute specific way to do this spell or ritual everyone’s magic works differently so it may work better for him while this works better for them. as for demons they don’t appear the exact same to everyone they want to be sudtule and appeasing. as for summoning looking at a sigil, calling out their name this that is their way of communicating effect one experince is different. that’s why there is chaos in magic cause there is no order or exact way to do something.

6 Likes

Interesting. I think it also depends on everyone’s power and ability. Maybe for some people methods X and Y are the proper ways because of their inherent abilities, characteristics
and other. While for some other people, these same methods wouldn’t make sense at all.

That may explain why we can read so many contradictory things sometimes…Yeah as you said it’s probably all at a personal level, this stuff.

3 Likes

In the occult there is no such thing as Capital T Truth. It is all subjective and very dependent on the beliefs of the magician.

The grimoires were all written at a time when the Church was the only Power in the world and so they are written from that perspective. Back then, they were afraid of what they were summoning, because the Church told them to be. That’s why they are filled with compulsions and threats, and names of God.

We don’t live in those times anymore, and for most, the Church is not a part of our lives like it was back in the time the grimoires were written. Back then, the Church was The Law.

Of course spirits say different things to different summoners. Everyone is individual, and the words of the spirits are filtered through the mind of the magician, and thus greatly coloured by their own beliefs and emotions.

Just as some people can run really fast, but every human has the ability to run, some people have an in born talent for summoning spirits, but everyone is capable of it. Some just have to work harder at it.

7 Likes

Everybody says different things because everybody’s experience can be different, and that’s fine.

1 Like

But what if there’s only one way’s who matters ?

Like, let’s say Christians are right since the start and there’s really hellish hell and all that shit.
So we’re screwed if that’s true.
See ? There are times knowing the truth is vital, or at least crucial.
That could avoid a beginner getting screwed by nasty entities too. Probably.

1 Like

But why would a black magician, back at this era would be influenced by the Church and write such things ? Seems odd to me. Magicians at that era are supposed to give no f* about the curch, no ?

Here’s the thing: What Christians say about Hell IS true. For Christians.

What Buddhists say IS true. For Buddhists. (In Buddhism there are many different kinds of “Hells” and “Heavens” not just one.)

What Muslims say IS True. For Muslims.

They don’t apply to anyone outside of those faiths.

9 Likes

If you wish to go all the way back…you must start in ancient sumeria. You must start from the the absolute beginning of time…and that is only the “so-called creation of civilization”…then you look to cosmology. Everything “threads” together…if you cannot see it than you cannot see it. Just like a believer does not believe in magick…They have pentagrams on churches…it is a lot more woven together than one thinks and that is a very long journey into religion, civilization, and history-----to understand one belief you must somewhat have an understanding in all----you would be amazed to find out how they all thread together for go against the threading for one purpose or another----but yes, in some way, shape, or form they are connected…just not as obvious as one would be looking for. It is all dependent upon the time frame…the cultures…the language…but again, the principles are oddly the same. Just the intent changes…and “groupings” and names…do a little digging and you will find what you wish to seek.

3 Likes

You’re right and wrong. There are some things we may say are generally accepted to be features of magick and of our cosmology, but magick itself is not limited by rules in the way that you think. We may generally agree that there is a Void out there and in here, but what is the significance of this Void?

Is it the unmanifest absolute? Is it the supreme ineffable absolute beyond the absolute? Is it just a primary force that beholds infinity? Is it inscribed into the absolute or outside of the absolute?

Figuring out these mysteries is a challenge in itself. The point is, no one really knows for sure. Even master magicians, mystics, philosophers, and the gods themselves don’t know everything. There are secrets hidden from everybody. What you think you know is a lie. All a lie is is a hidden truth that reveals the incompleteness of your assumptions.

Progress can be made, some perspectives are better than others, but this does not eliminate the subjectivity of magick.

Magick is unlimited in the very fact that it constitute everything and anything. All the rules and customs regarding their use are simply patterns of control that we have stumbled upon and communicate it to others. If you just go by your intuition and forget the rules, you can still gain results. If you just will something into existence, you can still gain results depending on your context for doing so.

3 Likes

The Church was the Law of the land, and if you didn’t want to be burned at the stake, then you wrote according to Church doctrine. Therefore, all demons were monstrous and grotesque, and wanted your immortal soul, and the only way to get them to do your bidding was to threaten them with the Power and Authority of God, and in the name of Jesus.

Not even black magicians want to be burned alive. Almost all humans will choose life over death, even if it means paying lip service to the Church.

Galileo didn’t want to suffer the fate of Giordano Bruno, so he retracted his conclusions of heliocentrism, because it was heresy to the Church. He was still forced to spend the rest of his life under house arrest though.

4 Likes

Do you mean beliefs about magick and cosmology, or do you mean that beliefs in general are interwoven from the earliest points in human history. I.e beliefs about magick and cosmology are tied in with beliefs about rulership, geography, etc.?

By threading together, do you mean that these beliefs point to common principles used in magick?

1 Like

But what you are asking for now is a universal truth for everyone and such a thing doesnt exists.
If you believe in the hell of christianity and that you belong there then thats where you will end up but (and a big but that is) that hell is not eternal damnation it will purge you from the weakness you have in this life that stops you from ascending and afterwards you will continue your journey.
An indian shaman once told me that we are the center of our own reality everyone else in existance is only puppets we are the only ”real” thing.
I think that fits so Well both with the view of your place in the universe from s lhp perspectiv and from a scientific stand where the reality is only a construct from our experiences.
That being said you are the only one in your universe so the truth is what you decide it to be.
Take what works and what you find usefull and discard the rest.

2 Likes

The Problem is everyone’s truth is subjective to the individual, so what works for someone else might not work for you. This is why it is good to experiement with different types of magick and find what works for you. As some will have strenghts in certain areas and weaknesses in others. So until you find what clicks for you, it can take a while. Stop expecting everything to happen as soon as you pick up the book and read it. You need to learn and apply it and that takes time to master and again you might even try a totally different way from what you have read.

3 Likes

you also have to look at hours old Christianity actually is, only 2000 years old the ancient ones, demons, spirits are much older than Christianity.

2 Likes

All the above. That is like when someone says do you see the all seeing eye or eye of Horus or illuminati…or an eye in a triangle that looks like nothing…no matter how you slice it is the same…threaded by many views, many eyes…many ways. I am too abstract to explain such concepts honestly. I can only tell you it took me around 2-3 years to come to my own “understanding” of the “origin” and foundation of civilization and beliefs or “religion” within our realm and the symbols/magick----they all tie via symbols…I believe it is also a very dynamic learning process and not static. Love your analysis!!! You sound a lot like how I tear things apart----it is actually quite an admirable trait!!! :slight_smile:

2 Likes

I agree with you and this bothers me too. I think tradition was not created in a vacuum and people are very nihilistic today. Another thing is people are less logical as western society, has become more feminine and eroded by marxism, plus so many other races working against the western model of logic and investigation. However I do find that a lot of Christians ( Not all but many) will deny European history and they do not believe in how much pagans and alchemists influence the west and Christianity itself. I agree to a point with some of the other comments that the occult is an abstract science, so it can be hard to measure as it is not a hard science. I agree with RubyOnyx as I did what she did and went back in history to origins. I think it does make a difference. As far as the art goes it does annoy me how people treat it like post modern art, which is also nihilistic, Its good to be open minded but to much and all traditions will be lost and destroyed same for foreign ones to like martial arts , chinese medicine. Cooking and so on people today are to lazy and arrogant. The same thing could happen to sports if people wanted to take out all the rules it will cease to be anything at all and then on top of that they think they are brilliant and strong willed , like they know better then people in the past, when these things have been tested , it took 1000’s of years to build them

1 Like

Here’s my approach, There is a Creator meaning an Omnipresent Omnipotent Omniscient all pervasive mind that permeates all of existence in fractal form. It is an electromagnetically charged mind stuff
“most likely plasma” just like you are. It has cubes of space in which it manifests itself creating potential through periods of action (movement) and inaction (rest), And by the application of various pressures of it’s electric force it creates all energies and matter, Through the universal medium of Aether.

Its is by this Aether that waves of electromagnetic energy moves and propagates. This is why matter can instantly communicate with each other across vast regions of space (spooky action at a distance) this is why curses work.

They work because your consciousness is a fractal of this larger omni mind of the Creator,God,The All and what have you hence exhibit A :

This omni mind that you are a fractal of is what the gnostics called the “divine spark”. The electricity in your head and body which is inducing the electromagnetic field around your person. Just as the “Creator” applies various pressures to manifest energy and matter so do you do this very thing in ritual (where the mind goes the energy flows) with these pressures comes vibrations and frequencies which then induce the resonant corresponding effect (thanks to your application of the minds movement or (action) with godly focus (pressure) one can and will manifest results.

Now about the afterlife through the use of various substances or shear will mankind can tune his/her mind to various reality frequencies some use DMT, some use their highly trained will The astral plane is one such place that can be traveled to though there are many others. Most religions of earth have half truths and hidden truths it takes some reading between the lines and thorough investigation into others to decerne the etymologies and so forth.

From my own experience the purpose for existence is to exist, and we exist so we can evolve “we” being the collective fractalized self aware consciousnesses or the co-creator. So that the creator may know itself and its creation forever, and the only moral is to lead this incarnation in away that one may either Ascend to to higher planes Or “raising the consciousness/soul” or to reincarnate again in order to experience this universe again and again ad infinitum, The only crime is to waste one potential and therefore one life. It’s up to the individual.

Now about the subjective and objectivity of reality and experience. If it was all Subjective then supernatural phenomena/paranormal activity would not be able to be proven. because only the subject observer would be be able to testify to it happening and would not be able to recreate it by “it” I mean mean Telekinesis, Precognition, and various other psychic phenomena.

As many one this forum know these things can and have been recreated either by various institutions in the parapsychology department. Or amongst themselves or their peers on this forum. This is my dogma and my cosmology the I have gleaned from much study and I’ll tell you why it’s “dogma” (not everyone’s favorite word). I use this word not in the nowadays renditions of it in its religious nature but in it’s technical use being that through the broadening of my intellect about “things” of this nature I have reinforce what I have observed to be True and it is an objective Truth at that.

It’s objective because I use the material world and immaterial world as the source of evidence, As above So Below, As within So without, the universe is fractal and “you” are a part of this fractal, This is my cosmology. There is a reason cosmology is called the mother of all sciences, Because the only cosmology that is worth anything is one that can explain everything.

Thanks for reading and if you have any question on further details let me know.

Myrddin

2 Likes

Nobody knows much about anything. Humans don’t even know why they exist. The nature of the Universe is beyond comprehension. We think we see in straight lines between solar systems, yet the very presence of matter bends the path of light. That very fact, after some leap of logic, leads to the realization that: Nobody knows anything for certain. NOTHING.

All the labels, approaches to magic, names of god, demons is all relative, as in relativity, as in yes, Einstein. We each have a frame of reference that is constantly in flux.

Haven’t you noticed that the moment you think you have a handle on an occult topic, the carpet gets pulled from underneath you and something knocks you down a few pegs?

There aren’t many truths that you can clutch and hold. I do know that when it comes to occult practice, spending a few moments in meditation prior to a ritual is priceless. Let go of everything. Know that you aren’t your body, and let go of the muscles, the brain, the thoughts, the bones, the stomach, the genitals, the eyes …

This helps open you to sensing energies, spirits, and also puts you in a state of mind where you can conduct your rituals in a manner that is free of crutches and fake bs. Be true to yourself. This is YOUR frame of reference, your relativity. The universe is you, and you are it. Your influence can span the cosmos.

Trust yourself.

2 Likes

Love it. Wonderful perspective.

1 Like