A skeptical Satanist came with this argument that the universe don’t own us anything, so why would spirits do? I found it to be an interesting question, so what do you think?
Why would spirits care about us? Why would they help us?
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This has already been answered many times if you search the forum.
Basically, spirits help us because it gives them a chance to express their power in the physical world in a way they otherwise cannot.
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Then why on earth would they ask for offerings lol, don’t get me wrong I completely agree, but you work at McDonald’s you wouldn’t pay your customer to buy a burger right?
Just summoning them alone feeds their existence, I still don’t get why some are into offerings, do you make offerings? I think things like that should be out of generosity rather than a requirement, some spirits expect offerings straight up
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I feel offerings tend to be more of a religious thing than anything else. A lot of people approach them in a tit for tat kind of way, a sort of payment for services rendered, which I think is the wrong way to go about it.
It is not generally a part of my practice, no. I have, on occasion, given offerings as a sign of respect and appreciation, though.
The author Jason Miller has offerings as a cornerstone of his practice, and the main reason he gives as to why offerings are done is 1) To make amends for any unintentional offences, 2) to build a relationship of mutual respect with the spirits, and 3) to appease any wrathful beings.
I have only ever had two spirits ask for offerings, and they were both in an off-hand, informal, friendly way. not a demand or expectation. Belial wanted some of the cider I was drinking, for example, and Lilith wanted some wine.
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I suppose it depends on what kind of offering. I can imagine that blood and human life force makes them stronger to express themselves. Some have used blood offerings as a way of attracts demons making the summoning easier. Personally, I hope that I can summon them without offerings and make them perform a task. I have however purchased incense associated specific to the demons as it could attract them more.
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So they feel they own something to us when we allow them to access that?
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No, they don’t owe anything to us. Power simply wants to express itself.
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And they would not be able to do it without we making a request?
Basically, we have to open the door for them, whether that is through belief, or direct interaction.
It’s a mutually beneficial arrangement that yields tangible results for both parties regardless of whether an offering is given
Higher beings have to have our permission or they can’t do anything.
It’s part of the rules of this planet and to do with free will. This is why they say they don’t have free will: they do, but they can’t interfere with us unless we ask… "ask and ye shall receive" is real.
Humans are holding all the cards and most of them don’t even know it.
If you have to give an offering, and pay it for service, the entity you’re dealing with isn’t worth all that and it’s up to you to decide to do business. Higher beings want to do what they do and they don’t need anything at all other than your ask. But you must ask.
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So it’s my request and their agreement of it that opens the door for them?
Yes. Your permission is vital.
Will the spirit not just fool the magician and don’t do the request after the door has been open for them? Or do they face consequences of it?
That’s for lesser beings. In that case it’s an impostor and couldn’t do the work anyway. It’s not in the interests of a higher being to mislead you as then you won’t come back. They are more interested in building a relationship and helping you ascend.
A caveat to this is, when the human asking is not in alignment with himself. You can consciously ask for things that your heart or subconscious do not want. That conflict muddies the intent and the magick can fail for this reason, because permission and intent are not clear.
It’s very important for a human to know himself to do magick successfully, and pat of this knowing is bringing yourself into alignment so all of you is on the same page, or at least you understand how the different levels of your being interact. A common example is death curses that don’t kill. The heart didn’t want it but the ego did: usually the heart wins.
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What do you refer to when you say higher and lesser beings?
Is that also what causes a spirit to fail a request?
The ego can never surpass the heart?
There are millions of species and types, and all are an their own paths of spiritual evolution, so the difference comes down t behaviour. Lesser beings are those e call parasites, astral wildlife, things that need to feed of human energy, and cannot assist or perform work without it, or at all.
Higher beings are the ascended. They are not astral beings they are above that, on a higher frequency/ or you could say dimension. This includes, imo, angelics, deities, some fae, djinn.ETs and Goetia. These are not confined to Earth or locations known to humans. They were probably around before the Earth existed and may have helped create it and humanity.
Pretty much: it always boils down to the ability of the practitioner. Because you don’t actually need entities at all. But what you may not realise is you’re working against yourself. Know thyself is massively important. Imo, as usual.
No, because the ego is a spoiled child that doesn’t understand jack shit and is not connected to the universe.
I can see we speak the same language here. I just needed to be sure.
My argument for turning to spirits is that they may be able to scan and find the root of symptoms. The core in medicine is to cure or remove the cause of the symptoms.
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Very interesting thread. I agree that we have the potential to make magick by ourselves, without any aid from angels, demons or other entities, simply making use of the “universal raw power”. In this case, this power is amoral, has no ethics or morality attached to it, we can use it for good of bad purposes. However, what I am not clear is whether the different entities do have their own “ethics” and agendas, since it is said that same spirits can be called to perform wonderful or terrible things or simply not wanting to work with you. Maybe when you have little development of your own powers, it is better to hand off the task to someone (spirit) more skilled that you
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