Why are we talking to becoming a living God and nobody can manifest million $?

There are some simple and life-enhancing money-management rules which I found increase wealth in my life, not to the level of having private jets or gold-plated limos but definitely and effectively to the extent I often seem to have more money than friends and peers who earn more, because they don’t follow those mathematical and pragmatic rules.

Then there’s some very basic Law of Attraction stuff which is slightly more metaphysical but (like that link I posted to how luck is a learnable skill) they also make you change who you are, to change your outcomes, which also subtly reinforces that you’re an empowered person who can change your world and create the outcomes you want.

Next, there are some standard magickal techniques like arranging reality to be in the right places at the right times, influencing people etc., and they’re at the next level of skill up.

And finally there’s the level of almost miraculous outright manifestation of what you want, which I believe is attainable and which I believe I have experienced a few times, but I also think people shouldn’t put off doing the other three steps because they only want to go for this and nothing else will satisfy them - not because it’s “greedy” or wrong to only go for that outcome, but because building skill in those more down-to-earth skills will lead to becoming someone who can do increasingly expansive things with money magick, because they increase your set-point of how wealthy you believe you can be.

That’s how I’m seeing it, that each stage increases the level of comfort you have with the idea of yourself as wealthy, provides proof that wealth can exist for you, and also decreases the number of moments in life when you plain can’t afford something - an unwanted experience which reinforces the emotions and energetic imprints of lack and powerlessness in your life.

I don’t think it’s possible to achieve a truly miraculous outcome if you actively doubt that it’s possible, and repeatedly bumping into poverty-based restrictions in everyday life because of bad money management, bad attitudes about your own ability to have wealth, and lack of opportunities etc., will all provide practical proof to your conscious and subconscious minds that you’re poor, making it almost impossible to cleanly manifest a miraculous outcome in which you find some way (and it could be outside the monetary system altogether) to no longer be restricted by lack of money.

It seems to me that a lot of things, from learning to fix a blocked drain to causing miracles to manifest, are about becoming the type of person who can do these things, instead of learning a rote set of skills without any internal alchemical changes.

That’s why the stages are important, not to be worthy or like slogging through school to finally “earn” your graduation, but because they’re what performs the actual internal work needed to accomplish the desired goal.

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Well again, I don’t think that his question was based on the right intent that he had, but I do think that his question raised a valid question overall. While I personally haven’t taken too much from questioning EA’s skill by how much money he makes or his results, I do see why it would strike someone as weird when proclaimed “mastery” of magick comes from a source that demonstrates a clear clear need to have to put in as much work as anyone else to do something like make money. Now while koby definitely demonstrates a great deal of anti-wealth ideology, his initial question was addressing self-proclaimed mastery over creational forces while demonstrating a lack of mastery.

I don’t think that this is a question that is too outrageous given the apparent desires of people on this forum and EA himself. I know there have been allusions that sought to demonstrate a perceived ridiculousness in that question:

I personally don’t think that this really fits this category based on a few things. Hairdressing and poodle-trimming, for most of us here, are not at all basic needs, so it would be kinda retarded to pick up that skill for no reason. However, money is considered by many a basic need for life, and even for those of us who don’t put as much stake in it as others, it is still something we would much rather have than not.

To add, if we could, at least many of us would elect to not have to spend nearly as much time in a day making money as we do. If we were to have $60 million dropped into our lives right now, we would more than likely radically change many things that seem to claim a greater part of our day. As such, I would bet decent money that if this were the case for EA, he also would be freed up to do a lot that he would like to do.

Since I consider one’s ability to exercise freedom as a major facet in the mastery of magick and life in general, it does give some pause when a person is claiming such mastery without a degree of freedom that is decidedly greater than what you are exposed to on a day-to-day basis. And as Gods, wealth and abundance, to the point of extreme exuberance, is a quality that we associate with divine beings such as deities. They have absolutely no worry for their material needs, and even human figures that attained divine status are often seen in the same light. Hell, even The Bible begins with it’s patriarchs having obscene amounts of wealth that they barely do a thing for.

So given that monetary abundance is a key desire and need (for most) for people here and all over the world, it is a bit silly-looking when you proclaim mastery over magickal forces while still having to put forth manual effort that is far greater than the divine figures that became “Gods”. It at least would due well to exhibit a bit more humility and acknowledgement of personal limits than EA advertises, but that’s a business issue that he has to figure out on his own.

However, with all that said, y main issue with koby is doubting that magick’s potential can do this simply because he doesn’t see it here or in public venues. He even states that we wouldn’t see such master’s in these public venues, and yet he is basing his ideas on experiences that not only are counter-intuitive to his own ideas, but on experiences with people who aren’t even magicians.

That’s a personal issue with his intent behind the question, and as such he’s probably gonna need a mentor who has achieved what he wants if he’s gonna make it to that goal. However, the question itself isn’t as terribly flawed as people seem to think it is, especially given that the topic is money. If we can’t display mastery over a basic human “need” like money (and it is not that hard to do so, you just gotta know “where to go”), then I know that I personally couldn’t even call myself proficient, let alone a master. If he was referring to something that this community or EA have not show an expressed need for, that would be one thing. But money certainly is not in the same class as poodle-trimming or hairdressing for most of this community.

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YES IT IS.

the fact of the matter is, he asked if you can manefest a lot of money to prove your magick. that type of thinking is flawed right from the get-go. magick is the ability to manifest ideas and actions into physical appearance. money is not a physical object for most people. it’s a mental construct. it’s a substitute for an actual thing. paper money is a coupon that represents the value of something else. that something else is what you REALLY want. not the money. as i said before, fiat money in and of itself has no value other than what you can trade it in for.

if you really want money, you have to develop the habits that bring it to you. that’s the unsexy, unmagickal, unextraordinary, unexciting truth about the matter. it’s a day in day out habit of disciplining yourself to spend less than you make. there is no way around that fact.

then again, is money really a need or a WANT? i personally believe it is a WANT not a need.

money is an artificial construct. it’s not a natural deal. no other animal uses money besides humans. and even for us. the way we use money in today’s world isn’t even that historical. paper money only goes back around 800 year to china. before coins were invented and in most societies for most of history, we bartered for goods.

a former economist proved that you CAN live without money, but you will have to make just as many sacrifices to live without it as you make to earn it. it all comes down to what you want and taking personal responsibility for your desires and the actions you use to manifest them. YES i used the r-word, which might be the biggest swear word on balg. but that’s what it takes to master yourself. personal fucking RESPONSIBILITY. and anyone who believes otherwise, i honestly have nothing else to say to you. EVEN IN MAGICK THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS.

if you want evidence of financial mastery, you have to turn to financiers and entrepreneurs to show you the way. napoleon hill spent 25 years around the wealthiest human beings of the 20th century, and he found that their wealth was a combination of the following things:

i. they had the mindset of self discipline, and a positive mental attitude.

ii. they had strong intent. they all had a definiteness of their purpose in life, and they all had hope that they would achieve great things.

iii. they all used focused concentration in a way that timothy gallwey calls inner game in order to get what mihaly csikszentmihalyi calls flow, which really is just hyperfocus on their definite purpose to the point of trance. by focusing on their purpose, they sent their intention to the mastermind/superconscious mind of god, and by breathing into this idea, they raised cosmic habit force and used that energy to empower their creative vision. that is similar to magick in a general way, but not the same thing as ritual magick. what it comes down to is the fact that energy goes where attention flows. they also worked on the removal of inner blockages, developing their capacity of faith by freeing themselves from fears. and they did this by ACTION because in magick, action = true faith (belief without activity is dead).

iv. they followed up their concentration on their goal with what is known as outer game, or hill calls it applied faith. applied faith is really just personal initiative and the concentration of your endeavor, meaning aligning thoughts and actions. there is no way around the fact that you are and become what you do every day.

as far as evidence of mastery, hill noticed and wrote the following of the industrialists he spent all of his time around: these were their evidences.

a. they worked on building up sound physical health.

b. they had pleasing personalities, which i have also noticed. they had harmonious human relationships with their families and friends and were generally very co-operative. this of course flies in the face of popular opinion, because most broke and middle class types think all rich people are assholes. therefore, when you give a little bit of money to broke and middle class people, they suddenly become arrogant as they spend it all trying to keep up with the joneses. i call that the fuck you/pity me mentality.

c. all rich and wealthy people have the capacity of understanding people. they are master psychologists. the best of them apply the golden rule rather than manipulating others which is what most broke and middle class people think the rich do all day (that mentality of thinking the rich are master manipulators lies behind the whole illuminati deal going around online)

d. hill noticed that his industrial mentors had a labor of love. what they did for their careers they did with enthusiasm. they were pumped to go to work every day rather than showing up for work angry adn depressed like most broke and middle class people do. that enthusiasm endowed them with the habit of going the extra mile, because human beings always move away from pain and toward pleasure, therefore you always tend to overdo things you enjoy. it also gave them the habit of learning from defeat when things didn’t go their way, because again moving towards pleasure, you always want to continue doing things you enjoy no matter what sacrifices you make to get them done. most broke people quit when the going gets tough because circumstances often force to do things they don’t enjoy inherently, if they don’t choose to do the wrong things things due to confusion and muddled purpose. most middle class types feel obligated to do things they do not enjoy in order to please others or to project some false image. the rich and wealthy don’t fall for those things. they find ways to delegate things they don’t enjoy to others who are more inclined to stick with those activities so they can spend more time on things that they genuinely enjoy that also bring out the best in them. the rich and wealthy always think teamwork and cooperation, playing their position to the best of their abilities and having others do the same at higher and lower levels. that is why rich and wealthy people tend to be leaders and not followers or slaves, and it’s also why they tend to be sociable rather than competitive or lone wolves with an everyone for themselves mentality you often find among broke and middle class people who fancy themselves hustlers.

e. hill noticed that his industrialist mentors practiced the act of developing economic security by budgeting time and money. that’s not to say that they all have a lot of it. that is to say they do everything they can to spend less than they earn regardless of how much they earn, and they invested what they saved rather than wasting it on frivolous things. that is the real secret to VISIBLE wealth. all of the other points made above are the secrets to REAL wealth that exists but are not always visible if you spend all your time staring at people’s wallets.

f. hill noticed that his industrialist mentors were willing to share their blessings by starting charities and foundations. that not only kept them humble, but it also extended their wealth in ways that nobody really understands. it’s a financial truth that if you really want something, give it away and it comes back to you in a boomerang effect. don’t ask me why but it works for the most prosperous people of all time and i’m not going to argue with what works.

g. hill noticed in his industrial mentors that regardless of their level of education, they were always willing to learn more about whatever they were doing that worked for them. they had an open mind on all subjects, and they spent most of their learning time developing more and more accurate thinking into subjects that interested them. so even if they had no formal education, they were always learning and refining what they knew that worked effectively for them. that is the real meaning behind the term ‘street smarts.’

if you want to look for personal mastery, look for those seven things. they are the age-old habits of the truly wealthy.

the habit of staring at someone’s wallet as a gauge of their personal ability is short-sighted. 99% of the time it’s because the skeptical knowitall is trying to judge your worth based on some get-rich-quick mentality of you suddenly coming into a windfall. that is not the reality of money, it is the reality of GREED and AVARICE. money that shows up suddenly tends to go just as quickly, and those who manage to get money out of nowhere are either lucky or up to no good. it’s not a fair measure of the value of anyone to expect coins to drop out of the sky and land on them and that ‘show me the money’ mentality is fucking bogus.

money is not the measure of your magickal ability. it only measures your ability to spend less than you earn over time, and that is only ONE type of wealth. i’ve already named the other five, and the three (four) habits and mindsets that precede them. i said three (four) because the third is where the ritual magick is found and frankly, YOU DON’T NEED MAGICK TO CREATE WEALTH.

now.

if you are fucking pigheaded and you have made up your mind that magick has no choice but to produce money one way or the other and you will make it happen goddammit, then tell you what. buy jason miller’s book financial sorcery and get your magicks cranked up to the hilt. jason is the only magician i know of that does magick for money and money actually shows up. i’m sure there are other mages who can do this type of work but jason’s results are on the record and do not exist in speculation. but i’m telling you. even jason himself will tell you if you don’t get off your lazy ass and do the things napoleon hill explained AS WELL AS budgeting your finances and spending less than you make, it isn’t going to happen for you magick or no magick regardless of which god/dess’ sigil you choose to abuse with your body fluids. sound personal finance and investing in return-generating business ventures is as close to showing money as proof of your magickal skill as you’re going to get unless you’re a crook or a charlatan.

of course, luck happens sometimes and you may win the lottery or an inheritance, but don’t count on that. it’s never going to be a given that you’ll get something for nothing regardless of if you do magick for it or not. and i HAVE seen a friend gain $40 million through luck and i have seen the outcome of it all after a few years. the warnings you hear about lottery winners blowing it all are TRUE! there is ALWAYS a price to pay in life, nothing comes free even to the lucky ones. but i’ll keep silent on that.

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One thing I have noticed, though… Most magical systems simply don’t even DEAL with fiat currency, or have a spirit that “Brings Currency.” Most of us live in a system where Money=Labor, or more exactly, Money=Entitlement to Service. So to someone low on the totem pole, Get Money = Work for Someone Else. So… maybe the spirits and methods we’re dealing with are better at bringing Work than Currency? Also, keep in mind that we live in a tiered educational system where those of us lower down are strongly conditioned to associate money with labor for someone else’s enrichment, even though the reality is generally that the harder you work the less you earn, and the less time you have to pursue the things you really want to be doing.

In other words, what if we don’t have to work for currency and just have the belief implanted so firmly that it fundamentally warps our experience? As it is currently preached, money magic does not obey the rules. In weather magic, for example, or influencing thoughts, there is not up-front investment of labor other than the ritual itself. If a fifteen minute ritual can end a drought in a matter of hours - and I’ve done that - there’s no “path of manifestation” - the clouds weren’t there, I didn’t fly up and seed the clouds, or send my resume around to rain-gods, and my sense of humor practically forbids me to chant affirmations- you’d think a variation of the same fifteen-minute ritual would just as abruptly end poverty. How can you be at the Top of the chain of command in everything but when it comes to money you gotta serve somebody/brainwash yourself/etc?

To me, the situation suggestion “missing variable,” and the problem I have with Napolean Hill and the New Thought Ilk is that they have a Total Narrative - they have a whole trunk full of things that all goes together and none of it can be omitted and they refuse to admit or examine when some of it flagrantly doesn’t work…

For example, I believe Louise Hay is correct that her brand of positive thinking and eating healthy can heal many diseases - and I understand that certain diseases HAVE been alleviated and even cured by that approach. But she got rich and famous off trying to cure AIDS with the same techniques she swore by for everything else and it was a meteoric, epic disaster. She’s never once admitted that she failed, that there’s clearly something missing in her technique that shows it isn’t a universal fix-all but only has limited applications, and she can’t acknowledge that she failed because that would be negative thinking, and anyway, the important thing is that all those dead people got brainwashed into experiencing “emotional healing,” even though it didn’t actually help them. Both occult and mundane technology HAVE cured AIDS without positive thinking and strenuous belief changes, but never mind that. You have to do the work the authorities say you have to do, after all they’re the authorities.

Committing to a complete system of belief and behavior that is foreign and uncomfortable to you, despite its overt and obvious flaws and limitations, for an uncertain reward is a very, very tall order.

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What I am saying is whether something is operationally a need or not. I agree with what you are saying fool on the basis of nakedness, that money is indeed a construct. However, in the sense of operational reality, money is more real to people than anything else. I know that there has been talk about certain Gods on here and certainly we have talked about ideas of “man making ‘God’ in his image.” However, out of all those things, money has been one of the only ones where people have globally considered it “real” and a “need” in their life despite the myriad of differences we all got.

So while it is nakedly a construct, operationally it is about a real as real gets. The average and even “above average” individual spends more time in the pursuit of financial security than they do eating, bathing, and even sleeping, which are considered biological necessities. Hell, for at least the past 50 years, the primary function of school was to groom and prepare people for their careers, the likes of which are heavily graded in their prestige by the amount of money you make doing them (not all of them are like that, but money is a heavy part of that grade).

One of the key issues I have seen with magicians is the fact that magick is not considered “real” work. Take this quote here that you stated in this last post:

You’re saying that you can’t get something for nothing, the likes of which I will agree with. However, when you follow that with a “regardless of if you do magick or not,” you have placed magick outside of the parameter of being a “something”. This is one of those assumptions that I was stating about when i said that koby’s advice is riddled with it’s own heavy flaws with magick. The fact that magick isn’t considered work towards money is an idea based off personal speculation and not in the basis of reality itself.

Like you said, you only know Jason Miller to manifest money readily with magick. That is your experience, and it is perfectly valid for what you have seen at this time. However, in my experience, I know several people who are multi-millionaires due to their ability to work with primordial forces. They also possessed all those qualities that you mentioned with the financial mastery, so I am not arguing with that either. However, the key difference here between them and those who aren’t successful with manifesting money was that they considered their magick to not only be some work towards money, they considered it to be “the” work. Whatever manifested to them as the engine to manifest money was of null consequence, but that avenue was always an avenue in which the magnitude of efficiency in terms of time, energy, and resource availability/management was orders of magnitude higher than what was required of those who would be considered efficient in the avenue that was manifested. But that was something that worked well for them because they considered their magick to be the primary engine of their success, not a “nothing” or a boost.

So it’s not about looking at a person’s pocketbook just to gauge their mastery. Again, I do believe that was koby’s intent, but the heart of that question is focused at assessing someone’s magick ability based on a desire that they intently focus on. This community and EA himself have a keen interest in financial success. EA talks fur ad nauseum about manifesting money into life, especially in a lot of his earlier media. If magick is indeed “the ability to manifest ideas and actions into physical appearance,” then assessing one’s magickal mastery on not the money they make, but also the time, energy, and resources they put into such efforts, is not flawed when that person is using magick for money purposes. It is especially the case considering that all those qualities you mentioned with financially successful people applies to be successful with anything. A good magician would have all those 7 qualities towards magick, as a person with a healthy social life would have all those qualities in terms of interacting with friends and family, and so on.

Now I personally could turn myself into a millionaire within 8 months working less than 25 hours a week without magick using legal means. Now this is not just speculation, I have actually created such monetary success for myself when I was 19, without having initial capitol to do so. Give me $5000 to initially invest, and I can probably bump that time down to as low as 4 months, but I’m not sure because I just used the non-investment starting route. Nevertheless, the process wasn’t really complicated, so while I was considered a “smart” guy, I wouldn’t really place my intellect as being that big of a factor. My financial mentor was somewhat of an airhead, and he was filthy rich.

However, that is what I could achieve without magick. In fact, I was able to achieve that without even having the qualities you mentioned above. I was in pretty terrible health, pretty reckless with my spending, and I was fairly irresponsible. Likewise, I did lose that money simply because I kept spending and stopped working, so you definitely need those qualities to sustain and grow not just money, but anything. Regardless of that, I am fully confident that I would’ve retained and grew the money I was making at that time spending even less time per week as I moved on with it had I kept those qualities.

Considering that I was able to do this without magick, and considering that a master of magick would possess all these qualities with magick and, as a spillover result, his/her life, then what they have to do should be fare more efficient than what I even did with money, if they do indeed have money as a focus of their magick. However, if a person is utilizing magick for their finances, and it takes them not only 40 hours a week to make a million, but also several years to reach that threshold… I don’t see how that’s masterful. I can see it from a relatively proficient practitioner, but from someone who considers themselves a master, or a “Living God”… I mean why is it that money magick gets this pass when a person who cannot manifest love or sexual pleasure from a work is considered a failure if the focus of their magick is attaining that love or sexual pleasure?

It is also my experience that, even at a reasonably proficient level, money is actually pretty stable even with “evolutionary” adjustments along the way. However, my assessment of what reasonably proficient contains a set of skills that is not often addressed in most magical literature. Hence, the magicians that I have known to be effortlessly abundant with money would be considered masters by a great deal of magicians in the modern world. Yet, by their own estimation, they were just reasonably proficient, so we may be dealing with a different set of assessment towards magick. Hell, in many assessments, I could be considered reasonably proficient, and by my own assessment, I am deep into the novice realm.

[quote=“the fool, post:63, topic:4186”]if you want to look for personal mastery, look for those seven things. they are the age-old habits of the truly wealthy.

the habit of staring at someone’s wallet as a gauge of their personal ability is short-sighted. 99% of the time it’s because the skeptical knowitall is trying to judge your worth based on some get-rich-quick mentality of you suddenly coming into a windfall. that is not the reality of money, it is the reality of GREED and AVARICE. money that shows up suddenly tends to go just as quickly, and those who manage to get money out of nowhere are either lucky or up to no good. it’s not a fair measure of the value of anyone to expect coins to drop out of the sky and land on them and that ‘show me the money’ mentality is fucking bogus.

money is not the measure of your magickal ability. it only measures your ability to spend less than you earn over time, and that is only ONE type of wealth. i’ve already named the other five, and the three (four) habits and mindsets that precede them. i said three (four) because the third is where the ritual magick is found and frankly, YOU DON’T NEED MAGICK TO CREATE WEALTH.[/quote]
^ Everything in that post is solid gold, no pun intended.

I think Frater U.D. covers that in his book "Money Magic: Mastering Prosperity in its True Element " when he attributes money to Air and Mercury - who is of course also patron of thieves and liars!

He looks very closely at the essentially illusory nature of money there, money as an idea, and covers all that kind of stuff. I don’t think that in that he proposes that it’s possible to manifest solid banknotes out of thin air, though, but I’ll get onto that in a mo. :slight_smile:

He mainly says that the force behind money is of Air’s elemental nature and that ties in very closely to the stuff mentioned on here and by Gnosis in a few threads about the nature of the current economy.

Also, keep in mind that we live in a tiered educational system where those of us lower down are strongly conditioned to associate money with labor for someone else's enrichment, even though the reality is generally that the harder you work the less you earn, and the less time you have to pursue the things you really want to be doing.

Teachers & authors like David Neagle, T. Harv Eker and even Kiyosaki (I personally don’t like the latter much) all teach that the key to true wealth is breaking out of the “trading time for money” paradigm, because it’s immediately obviously that one only has so much time in a day and if that’s the resource traded, then sooner or later it becomes self-limiting.

I wondered about that for YEARS - the conclusion I drew is one of OBSERVATION being the key.

Tl;dr version - money is a limited man-made resource which originates FROM other people and whose value lies in it being observed and known to be limited, with each banknote being a numbered and unique cog in the system, so it has to come to you through other people, again something Hill & Wattles cover in detail.

The full-explanation version is that money (as in notes, currency, credits in an electronic account) isn’t a force that can just ping into being from raw atoms, each note is stamped with a serial number and is issued in pre-agreed amounts (as are coins), so, unlike trying to manifest for example solid gold, if you manifest currency it’s been observed prior to issue (as in, the amount printed was previously decided by the Treausry Office or whoever, with a heavy bias towards limiting the amount issued), then it’s been printed in set amounts using a known number of rolls of the special cloth-based stock it’s printed on and again, the mindset of everyone involved is that of policing it and making sure none goes astray.

Then, finally, it’s been baled in sequences (remember the old blackmailer’s note, “No consecutive numbers on the notes”?), issued, and doled out in minimal amounts from, foe example, employers to their staff, who watch each last note and never just grab a handful of cash uncounted, and assume that it will do.

So money ONLY gets into circulation after being so scrupulously observed in intentionally limiting ways that the possibility of a bundle of $20 notes pinging into existance, that are legit and not fakes, seems to be more limited than almost any other thing.

Whereas, to make water, all you need is hydrogen and oxygen, which are freely available unmonitored and haven’t had limiting thoughts stamped all over each molecule.

It’s my belief that when people do find money, or maybe even manifest cash somehow in their lives with no known causal route, the actual physical money that manifests is from hoards hidden by people who’ve since died, or buried by criminals and never found again, or just lost somewhere in the street, precisely because money ISN’T a freely circulating force of nature, it’s a human artefact issued under limited and intently-observed rules.

It’s like the difference between using magick to shrink a wart, which I think most of us would agree is feasible, compared to using magick to ping an operating theatre full of qualified and trained surgeons into existance to remove it for you.

That’s why i suggest people keep routes of manifestation for the thing they want as open as possible, so that they’re not determining that their desired item can only come to them via a specific route which may be too closely observed for them to be able to acquire it.

And that’s related to the reasons it’s really hard to perform magick in the presence of a large number of skeptical onlookers, and the reason for the whole tradition that’s linked to the 4th Power of the Sphinx, to remain silent about a large amount of the work you do. Hostile or sceptical observation doesn’t seem an ideal thing to enhance ANY kind of magick, and it’s crawling all over every banknote.

Committing to a complete system of belief and behavior that is foreign and uncomfortable to you, despite its overt and obvious flaws and limitations, for an uncertain reward is a very, very tall order.

Fair point, but when it’s worked so well for me and got me out of the poverty, grudge-ridden, “world’s against me” mindset to be probably one of the most successful people in my family in many generations, and when I have personal theories (like the one above re: money) that mean there aren’t any actual gaps in it all, then I continue to recommend it, not least because the major gain to me was to lose the sense of being a victim and to become a happier and more productive kind of person.

Louise Hay IMO suffered from a syndrome I’ve seen with a few teachers and authors (including some I know personally), where her entire career was predicated on promoting a single concept as applicable in every case, and therefore to admit it might be incomplete would bring her whole carefully detailed teachings crashing down.

There’s also the issue that for AIDS patients, again they’ve been observed into the tiniest detail by large numbers of medical staff who, especially in the early days, saw AIDS as an automatic death sentence.

It’s my belief that the origins of initiations lay in having the student witness the teacher perform an apparent miracle, in order to dispel disbelief, and that this is the polar opposite of that - that almost no-one can heal or change a situation in a miraculous manner once a large number of sceptical observers have been brought in to agree (and therefore set an intention) regarding the way it MUST unfold. Just a theory, probably exceptions exist, but it makes sense to me.

Getting back to those patients, there are many explanations for why shitty things sometimes happen to good people (or at least, people who in no way deserved to get AIDS, especially in the early years when it always led to a rather horrible death within a short period of time) and the ones that make sense in terms of having internal logic are largely unpalatable to people, because they imply that something the person did made them responsible, in some way.

Reminds me of this:

“I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, ‘wouldn’t it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?’ So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe.”
~ Marcus Cole

It’s a minefield I try to stay out of, and anyway the main takeaway I got from Hill et al. was that the one thing I can always control is my reaction to a situation, and that therefore learning the tools for that will set me ahead in any situation, no matter how crappy or perceivedly unfair it may be.

I’m curious in a non-snarky way, why did you stop?

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[quote=“the1gza, post:60, topic:4186”]Quote from: the fool on Today at 11:15 AM

it’s never going to be a given that you’ll get something for nothing regardless of if you do magick for it or not.[/quote]

I’m confussed in the Mastering Evocation course Ea Koetting said that it’s possible to create something from Nothing, for sure one of you too is wrong,in few years if I will have few milllions I will book a consultation with him, because with the Infation his ‘prices’ will go higher,just need to ask few question, he will not come here because this forum is free doens’t make him ‘money’ again guys it’s all about money.

My question was simple a guy is telling me that I can create somenthing from nothing, so I ask few questions, How? I can not do it because I don’t have the abilities, Can you? Can you manifest money for me? Yes?
Thank you, Can’t you? mmmm,maybe you saw somebody that did it or are you trying to teach me somenthing that ''righ now you can not do it? or there are more reason that you are telling to people that you can create somenthing from nothing as a Living God?
Last question:

Can you teach somenthing that you are not able to do?

I apologize to be so ignorant.

2 Likes

[quote=“koby, post:67, topic:4186”]How? I can not do it because I don’t have the abilities, Can you? Can you manifest money for me? Yes?
Thank you, Can’t you? mmmm,maybe you saw somebody that did it or are you trying to teach me somenthing that ''righ now you can not do it? or there are more reason that you are telling to people that you can create somenthing from nothing as a Living God?
Last question:

Can you teach somenthing that you are not able to do?

I apologize to be so ignorant.[/quote]

I can only speak for myself but I’m fairly sure that I can manifest things from nothing, but that to do so I need to enter a state of mind that’s rather difficult to reach (< English understatement there, also, ref: my earlier comparison with Olympic Gold) and in which state, ironically, it’s hard to WANT something enough to manifest it.

Money you make as in, banknotes that you cause to plop into existance, would be worthless since the nature of money is that it’s a limited and numbered man-made resource and your banknotes would be essentially forgeries and worthless - money you manifest has to therefore have been made by someone else, which brings all that observation stuff I described above into the equation.

It’s like the difference between being bored one Sunday and going into the astral, and having yourself an adventure there, which magick is really suited to aid you with, versus expecting magick to let you turn on the TV and manifest for you an episode of your favourite TV show with all the actors, production crew etc., which would require other people to act on your behalf and would be similarly close to impossible.

In that case your best bet would be to try and manifest an extra run of your favourite show or something, but that would start coming through normal routes and not be the same as manifesting from nothing at all.

Manifesting something that originates as the observed product of other people’s work seems harder (ref: my points about the difficulty of doing magick in the presence of sceptics) because our physical reality seems to be kind of quantum-locked, and you can google that phrase because I’ve done quite enough sci-fi nerding for one session. :slight_smile:

I believe some of EA’s stuff covers structuring something and then waiting for energy in this world to infill that structured matrix, and it’s a similar idea to the one used in Wattle’s book The Science Of Getting Rich in which you strongly visualise your desired outcome, which can include a specific sum of cash, whilst getting on with other things. The book’s free online so you can try that method if you want.

Oh and PS to earlier points: I went to a talk at the British Museum about the history of currency, and it seems the next level of transactions following on from simple one-to-one bartering involved scribes keeping records of who owed what to whom, so the first wealth also only existed as ideas, and not tied to, for example, a national gold reserve - a point the speaker made clear resembles our modern situation.

So Air/Mind/Mercury does seem to be the true and original element of wealth and prosperity, which may be why any discussion of it generates so much hot air. :smiley:

PPS: to put what I’m talking about with the limited nature of currency in a really simple form, suppose there are only 10 limited edition vases made by a world-renowned sculptor and he numbers each one, so their value lies exclusively in there only being ten of them, and the location of all of them is known - maybe private collectors or museums.

If you were to manifest from thin air an 11th vase, even if the materials it was made from were identical, and it was equally beautiful to look at etc., it would have a fragment of the value of the real vases: if it was numbered between 1 - 10, it would be a forgery (and therefore illegal to pass off as the real thing) and if it were numbered 11, it would be a joke or novelty item, and worth only what someone would pay for the way it looks.

Money is the same - it’s a known amount of a man-made artefact whose sole value lies in the fact it’s numbered and limited, and even digital currency is tied directly to numbered banknotes that physically exist, and sooner or later, even if you mojo-ed a bunch of extra zeroes into your account, the discrepancy would show up and your forged currency would be devalued.

I don’t want read this whole thread but this kind of thinking is exactly how I approached magic in the beginning and nothing worked.

I was in a bad place as most of us are when starting out. It’s a fact black magic attracts the desperate unless you’re born into a family that practices. Now only a year and a half later from starting out I have made a sizeable amount of money for my age and have a long term (very realistic) plan to keep making exponentially more. I have focused on money though, greed might as well be my name. Many here have other goals, EA himself included. If EA wanted more money he would put out much more content. Why would he restrict the number of prints of his books? He makes no money on the resell unless he is keeping a few for himself.

I don’t know why I wrote this, I hope you fail and continue failing koby. Don’t waste your time here.

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While I can agree that koby is being pretty unrealistic and is perhaps wasting his time here with his mentalities, hoping that he fails… a bit too hyped about his mental state you might be.

In terms of EA, there are more than a few reasons why, from a monetary standpoint, he would not produce books anymore. For one, he stated quite clearly that the production costs of those books was pretty steep. He fashioned them with a whole lot of stuff that cost a decent deal of money, and given his other avenues, it doesn’t make sense to pour a lot of money into producing physical books.

He’s since then placed his Complete Works for purchase digitally, or at least the last I heard of it. The production cost of digital releases is far lower than physical copy, perhaps only the amount of paying for a hosting site and, possibly, an online merchant account. Also, people cannot resell their digital copies to others without some sort of reprimand, as selling such could be done over and over again by the seller. So if people want his digital books, they come to him, and not someone who has the capability to resell their own shit.

Finally, EA’s 3 “Mastery” courses for astral travel, evocation, and divination, are always available for purchase in a digital format. Again, having this format keeps production costs far lower than creating continuous DVDs for them. He also has magick-for-hire services he is offering, so by no means does the limitation of physical copy books limit his income. I could bet that he makes far more money from the digital media he sells, but I couldn’t say for sure.

At any rate, I believe I was asked why I stopped doing what I did, and in answering I will also answer an inquiry I received from koby. What I did was primarily online work that involved going through a few loopholes in order to make what I was doing work. My mentor on this program first got me involved in a standard chain-letter type deal, which in most normal circumstances is illegal. The reason why is that those things are somewhat pyramid-like, and pyramids are illegal because, at a certain point, the pyramid theoretically outlasts the population of people on Earth.

I’m not sure I have to explain this, but let’s just say you have a pyramid that is supposed to be 10 levels deep. If I am on level one, I have a task of recruiting, let’s say, 10 people. They all pay their way into the pyramid, and they would be considered level 2. Those people who are recruited are instructed to get 10 people each, and the people the recruit would be 100. The idea is that the pyramid is set up so that in each level, the person higher up is getting paid from each level of the pyramid. The problem is that by the time you reach the 10th level, the population of the pyramid is, theoretically, over 10 billion people.

Many chain letters solved the pyramid problem by creating a system of cycling out people so that the system is only 6 levels. I’m sure some of you may have gotten emails in the past like this:

“This is a letter seen on “insert media avenue” that can make you 40K or more easily! Just $6 to start.”

Then you get instructions to send $1 to 6 names on a particular list, in this case it was paypal e-mails. So you get a list like this:

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

What you did was that, as someone who entered this letter, you would send $1 to each person on the list. What you did once this was completed was that you inserted your name in the number 1 spot, and threw out the name in the #6 spot. So, your new list looks like this:

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

You then would advertise this list on several free venues such as craigslist (which doesn’t allow for that anymore), various yahoo and google groups, or, my personal favorite: web advertising safelists. You advertised this as much as you could, and after that, you simply waited until people did the same thing with that list.

The whole idea was that you name would get cycled farther and farther down the list, and as you cycled farther down, you cycled, the rate of people who sent you money grew exponentially. So, in level 2, 100 people got it. Level 3, 1000. Level 4, 10000. Level 5. 100000. Level 6, 100000.

This system, however, was also considered illegal after some time because there was exchange of item. Some lists tried to rationalize this as “paying your way onto the list,” but that also did not fly. So my mentor have created a list in which he the instructions called for each member to have “something” they sold to the person buying into the list. This something could be anything, including a file text file that said, “Congratulations, you are swell!” As long as it was a consistent item, you could have this list while satisfying all the legal ramifications.

I honestly did not think it would work, and yet it wound up working pretty damn well. By the end of 3 months, I had close to 80K just from advertising this list, which I used a multicolored vesica pisces to sell on the list. However, where my money came in was that the people who paid me were now a list of people 80K deep that I advertised other things to. My thing was advertising online network marketing products. When it comes to online money avenues, the real money is in recurring income. So I advertised affiliate products that taught online entrepreneurial things at a monthly charge. I got a percentage, and I could count on about 100 per media blurb to bite on the product.

As for why I stopped… well for starters, paypal started becoming really anal about people who made a lot of money in a short time on the site. They would withhold funds, bring up some new restriction… a whole lotta bullshit. So it would sometimes take weeks before I could see money I made, and that was a real bother.

However, my main reason for stopping was, initially, stupidity. Within 6 months, I had racked in about 200K from just that one list; I didn’t even do the list again but it net me $200K from just advertising products to that initial 80K people. Feeling that there was no way I could spend that much money, I started living WILD!

I threw several, no-charge parties at apartments around champaign campus, some of which cost over $10K. Those parties were good for $50K+, and I didn’t even keep record of the expenses so it could’ve been $70K (did I mention I was 19 and paying 21-year-olds, at my own suggestion, to purchase the liquor… which I also paid for). I helped “finance” several of my friend’s weed operations, despite the fact that they were NOT grossing profit for themselves or me, and we actually ended up smoking more than 50% of what was probably easily 20lbs (again, being really conservative, because I don’t want to admit, or perhaps I can’t imagine that I may have spent over $100K on weed in less than a year) of weed over a 10-month time period between a band of about 7 people with a cadre of different hoes coming through from time-to-time. On top of that, I was living in an apartment with $3000 monthly rent, which I also paid for solo despite being with roommates. I would like to say that I was being manipulated, but I came up with the idea to pay for rent despite my friends having their own jobs and despite them setting aside rent money. I just added that to the weed pool… yea now that I think about it, I easily spent over $100K on weed.

I completely underestimated how quickly the recurring incomes would dry up, and within a year and a half, my bank account was at a staggering $2500 with no new income coming through. I went back to work, but by that time paypal had becomes extremely difficult to deal with. Moreover, I had a place that was still due rent (I moved to a place that was by myself with $2000 rent… still pretty damn expensive) and a pretty profuse weed habit. I never considered myself addicted to weed, but it’s not easy to downgrade a weed habit that was as profuse as mine was.

At that time, I was also experiencing a spiritual awakening of sorts. I had seen how irresponsible I was, and that my motives for money were completely out-of-line. I thought myself pretty educated and even spiritually knowledgeable, and yet I spent nearly none of my money advancing my spiritual endeavors, which was MY KEY MOTIVATION in the first place. And considering that I managed to make close to half-a-mill overall, only to spend it so recklessly and frivolously… I wasn’t mad at all at myself. I was actually pretty clear-headed, including through my impending eviction and loss of electricity and gas (luckily it was warm that year, and I ran out of these utilities during the late spring and early summer). I just knew I needed to clear my head up quite a bit, especially since my family also managed to spend about $30K of it without making significant improvements to their lives either.

So that’s the whole story of my ascension and fall since it was asked about. I’m also sure that some of these things would not work now because of marketing saturation; craigslist is not as open as it used to be. And I’m not sure what the regulations are in regards to lists like these anymore, so who knows what’s up with that.

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Whow Giza i almost felt bad when you mentioned how much money you wasted to parties and drugs… I wonder how easy that “Pyramid scam” would be to do nowadays… I would certainly put that money into better use (in my perspective) who knows, maybe those parties and smoking weed with friends were excellent uses for you, but i think i would have been depressed afterwards :smiley:

Also of course E.A Koetting’s plan is to have lots of money, i mean one of he’s plan’s he must have many. But yeah of course, he is an author and a good salesman. Actually he seems very interested in selling various products unlike many other authors, but i don’t think this is a problem.

Yea that’s why I haven’t disagreed with any of the ideas about what it takes to retain wealth, and with money I would conform to the idea of the Law of Concealment, even before magick hahaha. You know you can show off with money, there’s no speculation to carrying around wads of cash. Those things were completely useless uses for me, but I thought that a few hundred thousand was a bottomless pit of money.

It’s also why I tell people to have patience with practicing magick for the sole or even chief reason of immediately manifesting material wealth. Aside from the fact that such hyped approaches are often met with failure due to lack of skill, it is also because many folks aren’t actually ready for what they BELIEVE they want. When I think about that, I honestly and truthfully DID NOT KNOW what to do with all that money, and given who I am now, I could have less than $20000 and be, literally, 100x more proficient and productive with that than I was with $300K+.

And while some could say that this was the universe balancing itself… naaaaaaahhhh. I wasn’t met with misfortunes that robbed me of cash, I walked head first into these situations despite the universe telling me to cool down my spending. Although I was young and dumber than i am now, I wasn’t devoid of self-management skills by any stretch. I was dead conscious of what I was doing, and y personality at that time was to live and do things on the edge. Unless a problem was right in my face, I did not address it at all. SO I didn’t start trying to earn more money and a fresher list (lists also dry up pretty quickly, especially if the source is somewhat weak) until I was really beyond the danger zone relative to the lifestyle I was living.

So yea, it was pretty dumb, but it was also a result that came from having too much of something that I did not know what to do with. And many people don’t; folks get the chance at having millions and often make decisions that are worthless. Buying huge estates in which at least 70% of the space is underutilized, if utilized at all. Buying cars you’ll never drive, a pool when you can’t swim, wardrobes that are designer-labeled just because it is designer-labeled… these are all things that are typical spending habits with that type of money. Yet and still, they are useless, most often, to the folks that even buy them.

With that said, having that money with that mindset is no excuse to act like that. I also would not advocate that someone who aware of those somewhat deep-seeded tendencies to avoid money because of that. I personally don’t do so because I don’t feel that money is life, and even though I like having it around, it is something that I found easier to attain when I am not fretting over it or even considering it a priority. I also add that I am taking care of my priorities, mostly in the primordial sense, so I’m not talking about slothing instead of getting money in the traditional sense. Nevertheless, if a person has those qualities, they gotta fix that shit, because those tendencies are not just relegated to money. The frivolous, lavish ideologies that go into having a lot of money have their reciprocal permutations in approaches to social and love lives, as well as how we approach our chief goals in life.

So honestly, it’s about growing up. And as you grow up, your ideologies change in order to best approach what it is you set out to do in life. It shapes your thoughts, and those thoughts are going to manifest differently based on what you may be doing. If you are a magician, thinking in a way that is important for the non-magical businessman could be considered infant and limited in many respects, while the magickal thoughts of a magician can often be nonsensical and impractical, if not delusional, for success at being a non-magickal businessman. Either way, you have to have a pretty keen awareness of self for that success, or at least if that success is going to help your life. You have non-self aware people who make a lot of money, but their overall lives are horrible, so again, it’s about growing up to me.

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That’s very brave of you to share that story (and very entertaining to read!) but I don’t think you can compare a legit business that sticks around and sells actual products and services to a single end-user, without the proposal that they then go and resell being an integral part of the deal, to a pyramid scam comprised of selling e-mail addresses - or, in the case of the “network marketing” thing, a chain-letter & list with a few bits of LoA oriented philosophy tacked on.

It’s honestly like me saying Microsoft have a crappy business model at $77.65bn profit last year when the annual drugs trade for north America alone pockets an estimated $150bn.

And while I like a lot of the people (like Vitale) whose products are cycled through “network marketing” it’s really just a scam of the same order when it reaches that level of people teaching people to teach people to teach people to market their teaching.

There’s no single end-user who buys the product solely for its own value to them, and without the direct expectation they’re moving up in a chain into the exact same line of business as the seller.

It’s like comparing apples and oranges - pyramid schemes are highly shady, people at the farthest reach (which with that business model is the majority of your customers) don’t get what they paid for, which was their assumption, naïve or cynical, of a quick buck for nothing… it doesn’t really “manifest” money either in the literal sense of making dollars appear out of thin air, nor in the sense of building a sustainable business model, because it relies upon the premise that it will launch the buyer into the same business as the seller, whilst having little to no other value.

Selling nothing-much except a bit of info and a bunch of addresses also has far lower ongoing costs than selling real stuff that sometimes requires follow-up, and always has associated delivery and manufacturing costs, etc.

I’m not judging, I mean I don’t even know why people get into network marketing when it’s so well known as a scam, so that’s a world of weirdness, but there’s no way the two things can even be considered in the same breath, so to say “EA’s crap at magick because his business can’t compare to my scam” is kind of a redundant statement… highly entertaining to read though, you should write a novel about it - be like The Wolf Of The Web (not The Wolf Of Wall Street)! :slight_smile:

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I would definitely say that your assessment is somewhat biased in terms of the business, especially given that I wasn’t selling emails (people paid to get into the pyramid, but they never once got the emails that I personally gathered from “customers”). It was list building, I sold real products to the emails I gathered from the list. I made the minority of my money from gathering the list itself, most of it was from selling coaching services that were supplied on Clickbank as an affiliate. Network marketing was a part of it, but the Clickbank coaching services were a far bigger ticket item, and they were usually monthly charged. The whole goal was to get recurring income.

As for buying into network marketing, the whole value of the program is to make money. Granted, all network marketing ventures have a termination point, but honestly that can be said for ANY business if you are not one of the people at the head of the pack. For example, people are making hella money coaching individuals on how ot make money on eBay and Amazon selling “legit” products. However, they are selling information that is often outdated; this isn’t really something you can avoid, simply because that is how these merchants are. They change regulations so often that a procedure that worked a month ago will not work today. It still works for a lot of people who were in the game prior because they don’t enforce those rules as harshly on old veterans.

So what people do mostly on network marketing is that these systems revolve around facilitating marketing information. What you are technically buying is marketing information; that’s the product. It ain’t the same as what I did, I blatantly used a loophole for my own benefit. It was SOMEWHAT underhanded, but I simply didn’t care because money was money, and honestly I got thanked A LOT by people who used it. The monetary system of capitalism is innately flawed in my opinion, so the difference between selling drugs and selling retail items is regulation. One of the biggest industries in the world is based on pharmaceuticals, which is nothing but selling legal drugs.

So it’s a perspective-based thing in my opinion, because you’ll be hard-pressed to find something that is pyramidal when it comes to capitalist ventures. I’m not knocking anything else, but information is just as much a product as anything else. People give consultation services to teach people how to be consultants, the only difference being that you don’t use any leverage from other’s work to gain monetary benefit. I mean… why would you do more work when you can leverage off residual marketing? Of course it’s less money, that’s the whole damn point hahaha!!!

You perhaps have never worked a network marketing venture, because things like followup with customers and things like that… you definitely have to do that if you want to sustain the model for any time. I actually never got into network marketing because it was A LOT harder than it looked, and you had to make sure you people made money if you wanted to make some money.

I also wasn’t comparing EA’s business model to mine at all, I simply just said that I could make money without magick. It was still mostly buy-the-book, again those Clickbank products were recurring based on monthly membership that the customers got for coaching services, but also spiritual websites and even things like fitness (I just saw stuff that was potentially hot-ticket and decided to see if it could rack bank). They comprised over 75% of my income, so the pyramid was just a way form me to gather emails for people who bough under me. The list gathering was something I noticed I could bank off of due to my mentor pointing it out. I actually didn’t pay for a pre-provided list, it was gathered from the people who responded to my facilitation of that chain- letter. I only brought up EA to point out to MichaelSmith that EA’s termination of physical books was actually a smarter business move than continuously producing, what EA expressed as expensive hard-copies.

Again, I’m not sure you have a decent understanding of network marketing, and I honestly will agree with you that it is somewhat scammish. Also, take not that my explanation of a few things is highly syncopated and incomplete, since I’m not going to spend like 30 pages with of space talking about it hahahaha. However, what network marketing did teach me is that business, as it grows, becomes highly pyramidal if you are going to make money. Difference is that in “legit” business, those under you in that pyramid are best there in a fixed position… sounds like a shittier deal if you ask me.

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I’m such a dick that i still am wondering would i success in this pyramid like thing :O, and how could i make it easily as possible as i am a novice - and english is my second language so i’m worried that i don’t understand all the parts. Also if this requires math skills, i have none.

And here we are on magick forum working on pyramid schemes XD

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i had to swerve the philosophy and procrastination direction this thread is going in and bring the magick back into the equation. so i went to amazon and bought this.

from what i read, damon took some information from key scale 20 in liber 777 and put it into the new avatar power’s nitika ritual to give it more power. he also seems to have added other spirit helpers from crowley’s western kabbalah to give the ritual more power.

i’m going to put one of his cashbooks together and test it out. we’ll see how my money comes and goes over the next month or so.

it’s all about keeping the work practical.

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Too much synchonicity on here to ignore - I have to have this!

Thanks Fool, and look forward to reading how it works for you! :slight_smile:

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[quote=“the fool, post:76, topic:4186”]i had to swerve the philosophy and procrastination direction this thread is going in and bring the magick back into the equation. so i went to amazon and bought this.

from what i read, damon took some information from key scale 20 in liber 777 and put it into the new avatar power’s nitika ritual to give it more power. he also seems to have added other spirit helpers from crowley’s western kabbalah to give the ritual more power.

i’m going to put one of his cashbooks together and test it out. we’ll see how my money comes and goes over the next month or so.

it’s all about keeping the work practical.[/quote]I picked this book up myself, when it was mentioned in another thread. Haven’t used it yet so I look forward to hearing about your results, Fool.

Here’s a funny thing - I went to UK Amazon and the Kindle version is £1.90, and I only have Kindle on my PC, not a device for it, so I usually prefer a paperback I can read lying in bed to get away from the screen.

Then, I saw some paperbacks are £2.47 (+ £2.80 P&P) and I thought, fuck, I’m so damned impatient I’ll buy the Kindle now, also knowing that goes direct to the author, whereas the books are re-sold and he won’t get any money, and then if I like it enough to want to work from it again I’ll get the paperback as well.

I don’t really have money to burn, and while most of us don’t like to believe we’re the recipients of someone else’s magickal influence, that was an amusing thing so thought I’d report it fwiw! :wink:

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Summon the Demon Clauneck maybe he will help for that “Living God”

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