When your only connection to magic is depth-psychological

If you’ve spent years meditating, doing ritual, and at most having either small synchronicities (often after loading up on psychedelics with ritual) or finding out that your really big mystical experiences have way more to do with ‘bubbles’ of unconscious material not previously handled getting lanced by certain activity (to which repetition of contact just attenuates the effects to zero) - it seems to put you in a place where you come to the impression that, for whatever magic is for other people, your connection with it will only be psychology and at most a few random peacock’s tails over and above that which can’t be replicated.

Lets say you’re in that situation and also realize that having an ‘ecology of practice’ in the John Vervaeke sense is still way the heck better than chasing career, chasing tail, or going full-normie (joining the collapse of the West sounds like a nightmare not a relief), and you’ve been on that path for years of just working the daily grind with no expectations for improvement or results in the magical or occult sense - what’s your orientation to the content like?

So far for me it’s been valuable to learn that my mystical experiences have been mostly ‘first-contact’ with disconnected pockets of subconscious. I also learned that my desire to work with Lilith, Lucifer, and the Qliphoth (growing up Catholic, later being RHP, it was a big change and a big shift from base-self) has really been about me, as a spectrumite, trying to make contact with the Darwinian side of life, accept it as permanent, making peace with rather than hating it, and working with Lilith and Lucifer as teachers in this regard (or in my case - head mates that imitate Lilith and Lucifer - working with Lilith for five years has suggested to me that she’s purely a mind-puppet I put on to get certain work done just as much as any other divine or mundane imaginary friend).

So for people who need this in their lives but have to admit to themselves that only the psychological transmutations work for them (that they’ll probably never be ‘occultists’ in the context of ‘making things work’), what’s the walk with this path been like? Have you made any interesting discoveries about your make-up as to why you think it is that we’re stuck here (whether it’s genetic / hereditary - like athletic talent, whether it’s intellectual bearing shutting down what doesn’t fit an analytic map, even just the awful suggestion that having or not having these abilities is a matter of soul contract?).

I think a lot of us are probably going to find ourselves either in this spot permanently or, who knows, you maybe work energy exercises for decades and then have some grand Ezekiel or Zechariah vision that changes everything - that would be interesting to hear about as well.

What’s challenging with this - if you know that you aren’t getting the results advertised (even doing it all correctly, save the psychological benefits), it can be tricky as well to figure out what your next step is or what it is in your system that even needs to be diagnosed, and to date I haven’t run into anyone who suggested that anyone does magical or energetic diagnostics.

Also - is there any sort of terminology for people in this position? I think it’s clearly a ‘thing’, that it’s probably also no more a personal failing than height, hair-color, or gender, it’s just a matter of trying to figure out what it means as well as getting a sense as to whether this is a three year, five year, multidecade, or even permanent boundary.

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This is spot on for me and how I’ve been feeling about magick.

Most of the magick I’ve done has been internal I guess, or based on gaining knowledge, astrology, exploring astral realms, dreams, spirit communication, etc.

Very little to show for it in the physical world. I often wonder if there’s even any point to practicing magick really (or if it can even be called that).

Even interesting discoveries don’t seem to have much point. Like they make no difference in the world, no difference to myself either really.

This has been a three-decade issue for me. Like I have done some spells and some have worked, but that kind of work is too draining for me to do all the time for myself. Most of the time spells haven’t worked and I’m left drained by the efforts anyway so I don’t bother.

I’ve always been very sensitive to spirit communication though. One could say I have a natural ability or talent with these things (like clairaudience, clairvoyance, etc) and they wouldn’t be wrong, but those skills have honestly done very little for me.

Last week I got so fed up with something magick related that I put up a block on Belial to keep him from communicating with me. I’d not been working with him long, not directly at least, but he’d been trying to reach me for decades before that, sometimes influencing my life more directly (usually “emergency” sorts of scenarios, like in a protector sense). I hadn’t accepted him before that because I didn’t know why he wanted me, and also didn’t think there was any reason for a major spirit like that to want to work with me.

There was something I felt misguided with though, the sort of thing I was very much not okay with. The more I thought about it, if there’s any misguidance, then what really is the point to any of this? He wouldn’t leave when I requested him to go away so I put up a ward or sorts. Never before have I gotten the sense that a spirit could be “hurt” but that’s what I’d sensed from him as I was putting up the block. I don’t get it.

I dunno, sorry for rambling on that. I’m definitely in a weird spot magickally. Mostly it feels like spirits enjoy the ease of communicating with someone like me, with the sorts of abilities I have, yet it’s all been too one-sided for too long.

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When I examine my primary motives for wanting to see other realms - part of me really wants to figure out how to put a door-jam in Darwinian game theory or at least see if I can find ways for Scott Alexander’s Moloch to be prevented from causing human self-termination (Israel/Hamas, Russia/Ukraine, AI, synthetic bio, all the fun ways we could Dutch-oven ourselves out of existence). I’d love to find a psychosocial technology that de-psychopaths cultures without men needing to kill each other over the issue, and most importantly figuring out if there’s any answer to what seems like a near-bottomless problem where almost any incentive structure is hackable in an antisocial / first-defector kind of way. Pretty much I want to find both ‘real’ contact with the unseen in a way that I can trust is ontologically independent (not me putting on a sock-puppet in my own head and pretending with the idea that if I pretend long enough it won’t be a sock puppet - any disruption shows me that it’s just sock puppet with suspended disbelief, which I can do pretty successfully especially with a good psychedelic or D8/D9 edible).

I think nothing would bother me more than finding out that said entities were not only real and who / what they claimed to be but also hard worthless in terms of communicated content like they’re just using me as an emotional tampon.

Something I haven’t thought about much in a long time was an event from maybe March or April of 2015 where I woke up from a dream that I didn’t remember but felt like I’d been in contact with a being who at least seemed to have presented itself as an ascended master of sorts, I woke up in absolute bliss like I’d been cradled by his energy, and he was talking about how great Indian esotericism was, just that as that feeling wore off I really felt like getting bliss-bombed was a dodgy move and I had no positive curiosity about it - it was more like a ‘Universe - give me someone to talk to who isn’t trying to sell me something’.

I think this also brings up another thing that’s been frustrating, and it’s sort of in line with what you’re saying above, that when I have had enough ‘surprises’ to believe that something was more than likely a real encounter - it either seemed like the content was either useless BS or in the best cases (my panoramic goddess vision) it was profound but in a way where it was almost hierarchically condescending in the most loving way - ie. no words, just energy, when just a bit of guidance could have changed my life.

Not impossible that the broader conscious system considers my goals to be antithetical to the broader plan (to suggest maybe that I’m stuck on wanting to fix things that are supposed to be exactly the way they are?) but - if that were the case I’d love it to at least give me clear guidance on that. Similarly one of the biggest tangles I’ve been trying to unravel for years is the hard contradiction between nature foundationally red in tooth and nail (including human nature) and an infinitely loving cosmos. The idea that there’s this big line of souls in Devachan lined up for the experience of getting wrecked on earth either is something I have a hard time respecting or it’s a call to smoke weed, play video games, and watch the world burn because any improvement would subtract from the satisfaction of eternal souls who want to experience gulags, starvation, political imprisonment, etc. (and if it’s really that kind of party - I don’t have a Steve-O bone in my body).

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This post reflects my wavelength too.
Its weird because ever since I started delving into the occult and praying to demons my life has improved drastically over time. So it feels wrong to not be thankful for that, but on the other hand there hasnt been anything concrete.
I sometines have short visions in my minds eye which I think I didnt create myself, but then it could just be a deeper subconscious level from where they originate from.
Its tearing me apart tbh.

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Yeah.

What’s really hard about this for me has to do with something that Adeptus Psychonautica made a great citizen science discovery on. He spent a full month vaping DMT (once a week mid-dose, once a week high dose, other five days low) because he was working on making the best vapes he could and decided to just go with this experiment as something he’d do while he was working on that anyway. What he found out is that if he approached ‘breakthrough’ slowly he saw the transitional gradients - and it was his ‘self’ almost splitting like cells to where there were some selves that knew that he’d smoked DMT, others that didn’t, still others made the landscape that was developing. That’s very much something like what Sam Harris estimated that DMT would be, his description of what he understood of it that it was a person effectively getting shot out of a cannon to another place but he argued that we experience similar results any night that we dream.

I’m really convinced that at least most of the genuine surprise ‘others’ that I’ve experienced looking from behind my eyes are exactly that - subpersonalities coming to the front under special circumstances. That said I’ve heard some wild stories from people, there was an Afghanistan veteran who got into this stuff because he was in an active-fire situation, had to shoot enemy combatants, and a grieved spirit in him flew away and separated. Again - that could be inception of trauma and maybe that part didn’t ‘literally’ leave but - it’s still an open question as to whether subpersonalitiies as such might be something not as firmly anchored to us as we think, or sometimes a ship of theseus can happen when a person’s still ‘them’ but most of their subpersonalities somehow swap-out and swap-in new ones.

I’ve mentioned in other threads that I’m a fan of Donald Hoffman and Chetan Prakash’s Conscious Realism because it gives a physicalist and mathematical place for this kind of subpersonality activity, a place for egregores, a place for consciousness based on inorganic matter, and a place for a superorganism or emanationist deity. That makes sense to me at least and it makes a case for idealism that fits my experiences reliably. Still - that way of thinking takes a lot of exploration and I’m trying to figure out if it has anything I can use to falsify some experiences vs. validate others (or at least make reasonably accurate claims as to what degree of certainty that a call was coming from within the house rather than from outside).

Perhaps a question to that in particular, how would you use magick to accomplish this?

I get too overwhelmed thinking about that kind of stuff. Too many of the wrong forces (some supernatural, some human, some other) have acquired a disproportionate amount of power and have held sway over much of the world for far too long, and for the worse. By “wrong” I mean those which limit beliefs/spirituality/etc of humans in general or limit their capacity for exploration of anything which goes beyond the norm of what’s acceptable to follow or believe in. It could be religions, or attitudes, or social conventions, or anything like that which causes such limits on a wide scale.

Seems like it’s all well beyond the point of repair. I don’t even think highly destructive catastrophes can fix it anymore – or at least if one could, it would be so extreme it calls into question as to whether or not it should even be considered a fix.

Maybe that’s the issue with my magickal block. I focus so much on stabilizing other worlds in the astral realm in hopes that they will be inhabitable at some point, be it physically or some higher ascendance, I dunno. Doesn’t leave much room for improving much here. That topic is also far too much to get into.

By sock-puppet, do you mean these are things you’re unsure of as to whether or not they merely exist as part of your imagination?

I’m always hesitant to advise or suggest what anyone should think or feel or do, but a lot of this is merely trust, like learning to trust yourself and your own experiences more than anything else. That’s not to indiscriminately believe everything you experience, but it is certainly possible to develop the ability to better discern what’s more real and what’s not. Should one devote some focus on being able to do so, that is.

Personally I avoid any mind altering substances when doing this kind of work. Logically I think such things can certainly enable real experiences, but I also can’t think of anything that would spawn greater doubt on the validity of such experiences either (for me at least). I don’t like having those kinds of doubts or mistrust in my own perceptions.

It’s probably not fair to reduce it to quite that, not that far. I’d received plenty of other valuable guidance from him for a long while prior, without seeking it out or asking for it. Pretty much anything even remotely touching that topic gets way too complex for a response to a topic like this (probably better saved for a journal if I ever get around to keeping something like that on here).

I guess I’d like it if he was clear with me with what he wants exactly. Like why be this invested, what’s wanted from me exactly, those kinds of things. Because yea, if it is the equivalent on being a mere emotional outlet of sorts, I’m not okay with that (let alone misguidance over something I’m uncertain as to whether or not he’s even responsible for fucking around with in the first place – it would be nice to have true clarity on that too).

In contrast, another spirit that’s been around me a while is Azazel. Though he’s kept himself at far more of a distance, at least he’s made it very clear what he wants from me (astrological studies), and has provided guidance when he felt it was needed. The only time I’d ever really asked him for help with something directly, it was a bit of an impulsive ask, but I’d requested help with nudging a relationship into forming. It was with someone I knew through astrological studies. Later I found out that this other person had had a long term affiliation with Azazel as well. We had a relationship that lasted a long time and though it eventually ended, we are still close and have made significant changes in each others lives. Stuff of that sort goes a long way for me in showing that a spirit in sincere with their guidance – less so the relationship wish fulfillment aspect and much more so the spirit being keen on guiding two people who have a mutual affiliation with that spirit.

(such was one of those rare times where magick and spirit influence indisputably had an effect in the physical world for me)

Yea the notion of an infinitely loving cosmos has never been something I’ve never been able to get behind at all. It was far too early in life when I encountered extreme nastiness done on behalf of spirits (through Catholicism if I’m to be specific). No matter how much some might try to twist things around in their minds to make themselves believe that their deity is some infinitely benevolent being, sometimes they’re very much not. It doesn’t really matter if such a concept of an infinitely loving cosmos exists though, I think it’s more a matter of finding the spirits who do care and hopefully serving one another in a way that helps both.

There’s a lot more I’d like to respond to but I fear this post has already gotten absurdly lengthy as it is.
I very much appreciate you bringing up this general topic though, especially with how much a lot of it had been bothering me as of late. It’s helped with sorting some things out at least.

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I’m not even sure I’m seeking magickal power unless it’s the most direct and least invasive way to solve a problem that can’t be solved conventionally.

I really want to see higher truths, such as they extend into the physical, in such a way as I might be able to apply something that no one’s doing.

My take on truth so far, this could be pure naivety in the future tense but here it goes - it’s a draught where when you drink a little of it the most likely outcome is that people won’t talk to you because you’ll have a head full of ‘wrong-think’. Drink a lot more and you might find a mechanism to solve problems that people haven’t found yet. The prices of pursuing truth - being a social pariah (at least if you ever bring it up) and quite often staring into the abyss and looking at all kinds of things that you never wanted to believe were true (John Gray, Rene Girard, Scott Alexander, etc.).

That’s been an inescapable impression.

The best I can do with it is assume that it’s always subpersonalities, Jungian complexes, or whatever else along those lines, and maybe pick at bits they present that are useful but not trust anything where they’d encourage me to lean out over my skiis because the consequences aren’t their responsibility.

(I have to go but I’ll respond to the rest later)

I don’t gather that from Catholicism or Protestantism, I gather it from what NDE’ers keep saying. The one seemingly robust, and frankly terrifying idea in a cosmic horror type way, is that everything is love and light on the other side, no judgment in the absolute sense, that we preplan our lives, it’s the kind of thing that makes retirees and wistful suburbanites sigh with warm fuzzies and its the kind of thing that anyone whose been through real or deep trauma (at least my own case, maybe not all) it just about brings their lunch back up if they feel compelled not to dismiss it. I get the same thing - tears of grief and betrayal - when I think about the implications of what happens every time an NDE’er says that when they died that just looked at their body, felt nothing, and were ready to throw it away like a sandwich wrapper. Where I have to then shut my mouth is when people who’ve been beaten and abused, I have to take their trauma seriously, come back with the same wonderful detachment.

It really feels like, at least from this level, if the cosmos is conscious it’s like either the elevator doesn’t go all the way up or, worse ‘Meh - existence is infinite love, you’re an infinite being, I’m sure being born in Russia in 1915 to college professor parents and eating human flesh on Nazino (Cannibal Island) will be a wonderful growth experience! You’ll be fine because you’re immortal!’. I have absolutely no idea how to digest that mode of thinking. Embodiment forces a code on most of us - that you’re responsible for any trauma you can’t fend off and if the world can touch you then you deserved it for not being prepared, not being strong enough, etc. and we’re almost always thinking from the position of responsibility for our own well being - and apparently for heaven / Bardo / Devachan the whole point is to throttle that wherever and whenever possible for ‘expansion’.

As a single guy whose on the spectrum and who’ll probably never have kids, fragging my brain with this is probably okay (though I do it more because I feel like I have to), anyone whose married with kids - I’d probably stick with a traditional religion - for family networking, raising the kids with a cultural foothold, ie. spiritual ‘reality’ doesn’t cut it for raising a family because it’s fucking indifferent to human cultural needs although, somehow, we’re all on pre-birth plans.

So yeah, there are some really disturbing dichotomies where if you’re a crystal waver you’ll never think about these things because ‘love and light, love and light, love and light’ but when you sit with the implications - it’s dark.

I should clarify what I mean by that - I’m thinking in the way Samo Burja does with politics and technology where you try to find a means to improve things that also avoids stepping on the toes of power but sets off a multipolar trap in a positive or gainful direction where the changed self-propagate. I sort of want to ‘GameB’ the knowledge to fix incentive problems in complex systems where the incentives are currently turning people into socioeconomic cannibals.