What do the spirits think of themselves?

What will become of them? Will they last eternally?

I doubt it. Some of my spirits have shared their end goal with me. Or at least, what seems like an end goal. It might just be a current step in a grander plan, but who knows?
In any case, I do not believe anything lasts forever. Eventually, everything will cease.

I would love to comment but I am honestly too baked… so noooo waaaay! Great herb.

I will say that nothing really dies according to MY world view. This is a VERY DEEP question. LOL! Holy shit. Euio I will also say that we are saying the same thing from a different perspective. Nothing lasts forever AS IT IS, because all is always dying/evolving/changing. Energy does not die though. However I still ask… Or does it die? Hmmmm. Here we go down the mental masturbating bunny hole… -_-

I have similar views. I’m sure everything will continue as it is now, and I can’t event conceive how they will be in the future.

[quote=“Euoi, post:2, topic:4598”]I doubt it. Some of my spirits have shared their end goal with me. Or at least, what seems like an end goal. It might just be a current step in a grander plan, but who knows?
In any case, I do not believe anything lasts forever. Eventually, everything will cease.[/quote]

I don’t want them to die. It’s sad thinking that some of them are alone and unhappy. I heard many of them suffered some kind of nervous breakdown when they were cast out of heaven (this according to Roger Morneau who in the 1940’s was involved in a high level spirit worship society.)

The spirit I’m in a lifetime pact with told me that once their lives are over, they die completely - some will fall into a long sleep-like state when they’re not called on for millenia, then blink out, others will just actually die, though never easily - there being no need for an “afterlife” state, or any kind of reincarnation for most beings at that level.

It really upset me, but the reality he showed me is that most things which prevent human bodily death from being the end of existence are there to help that person grow and develop, and they already have little need of that kind of linear progression.

Since my Child was born fully conscious and aware from while he was still inside me, that indicates that their lives are very different to ours, they don’t start out completely undeveloped like a human baby with just a few pre-sets, so it makes sense they don’t need to have some “afterlife” where they sit round on a cloud mulling over their former lives and maybe preparing for the next.

He also told me that their deaths don’t happen as easily or simply as some humans seem to think, and many who are supposedly gone will take on new forms and make contact via psychic people and so on, since a lot of what they send us is a very simplified version of their true natures, often a kind of egregoric mask instead of the real thing.

Just my UPG there and not making any claims to it being “the truth” or anything.

Sleep-like state makes sense to me.

Even back in my christian days when I read too much Isaac Aasimov and St. Hildegard for my own good, it didn’t seem very logical to view death from a linear perspective. I received a picture of completion, that resonated with the “universe gestating in the womb of God/Source” analogy. Like actual death/annhilation is total stillness/un-use, almost the-space-between.

Too bad I’ve never found language to describe it adequately. Maybe depict it in playdough with my clients during Philosophy hour.

My world view holds humans to be like waves on an ocean, with the ego as the wave, that crests and breaks as we live and die, only to reform later as a new ego. Spirits, on the other hand, are the under currents that sweep through the oceans, never fully manifesting, and at varying depths from the surface.

My current view doesn’t allow for death of soul, as it were, because the soul is a static state in itself, like an H2O molecule that is still the molecule whether solid, liquid or gas. Spirits, on the other hand, seem tied to movement and purpose, and so wither and rot away without something to move them (i.e. us).

I tend to side with Lady Eva on this one……heres my take on this ~
I think spirits become dissolved after a period of non-attention. I hate to use the word ‘dead’ as it’s such a final ending because I think true death is about evolving and changing into other forms of realities. If you manufacture your own entity as many magicians do, you give it life and movement by paying attention to it in various ways. This attention directs energy on to the entity and it feeds off it accordingly to gain in strength. By giving it various qualities, it then forms a nature that allows it to accomplish its purpose or your will. Sometimes though, spirits can get forgotten about or just ignored and this can reduce their power. However, if the entity in question has a personality that allows it to think independently then it will be able to feed off outside sources of energy. This will then sustain its existence longer. Can energy die?..…in my experience energy can certainly become dead matter, although you cannot get bad energy only positive power exists. Theres good and theres evil but just because something is evil doesn’t make it bad, as this type of energy really could not happen (only as a moralistic view point, which is not reality). Evil certainly exists but it has to if you want Good energy, you can’t have one without the other. You wouldn’t know what happiness was until you’ve been sad as you would have no reference of its distinction. So theres no true badness, just positive, negative and dead matter.

I want to add that IMO it’s not just human attention they need or want, the spirits aren’t wafting round like pouty X-Factor contestants, gasping in horror the moment their name drops out the headlines. :slight_smile:

I say this because for a start, most of us have had the experience of meeting spirits who weren’t named in the grimoires or in the old tales of the gods, and those spirits have been getting by just fine, and also because nature spirits and the like aren’t all known, or known by name, nor worshipped, and again they thrive.

Every single crystal I’ve ever worked with has had a distinct spirit of its own, and there’s also a spirit of that whole group (quartz, calcite, etc) and these are physical forms and their associated spirits who formed over millions of years, and were out of sight and mind of humans until someone went and dug them up to sell. And yet, they have very strong spirits.

IMO it’s important not to be too influenced by the “young earth” creationist theory where mankind came along much closer to the beginning of everything - in reality homo sapiens are a very new thing on the planet, and longer than there was life, this planet was a seething mass of magma and chemicals that were inimical to any known physical lifeform - a fact I always bear in mind when remembering the affinity some demons have for flame, but that’s probably another topic.

This is a graphic showing how long humans have been around, in proportion to how long this planet seems to have existed:

I know opinions on this differ, but it’s my belief many of the spirits we know and deal with were around long before homo sapiens developed, and that they won’t just curl up their toes if we were to stop paying attention to them - I do think, though, that our attention allows them to create intrusions into this world and weaken the walls between worlds, and that strengthens the interface over time for everyone new who calls on them.

Again, JMO, I could be wrong about this!

I’m actually completing a project right now that encompasses the formation of the first physical life on earth, if it yields anything interesting I’ll post about it - it’s a soul-travel thing and based on some of the exercises in core shamanism in which you journey back to certain events before birth.

Yes, crystals are amazing as they appear to have their own self supporting energy, abit like a natural generator so I suppose they will all have their own spiritual nature and power. You must admit though Lady Eva…….spirits love getting involved with human affairs a great deal due to the energy we give them, although I do agree with the opening comment “spirits aren’t wafting round like pouty X-Factor contestants, gasping in horror the moment their name drops out the headlines” lol.

Eva, I completely agree with you, and here’s why:

For a spirit to be birthed, live, grow and mature, their totality of experience must have a physical reflection to sustain them. So, for example, the existence of a Mercury or Thoth God would have been impossible when dinosaurs walked the Earth, because there was no physical capacity for higher learning. But, when you go back that far into primordial earth, you see tons of spirits possessed of very atavistic qualities: volcano spirits, predator spirits, spirits of growth and of death, I’ve even evoked and met a spirit of the merging of Fire and Water, to be found within the oceans, where volcanic vents ooze magma into the salt water and provide an oasis of life and warmth in a cold, desolate ocean. The totality of its experience was completely alien, though it was incredibly aware.

I do believe that some of these primordial spirits can and have evolved, though. A spirit of awareness and alertness could very easily evolve basic logic, and thus perhaps guide evolution, just as we guide theirs. A spirit of primordial mating instinct might become what we would now call love or lust. Or, with the birth of higher instincts and the desire for sex as recreation, we gave birth to new Gods, instead of evolving Old Gods.

Of course, that’s educated theory. I don’t exactly recall being around to hunt velociraptors in between educated evocations.

Of notable interest also, is that unlike humans, spirits are capable of completely absorbing any experience. If you try to teach an infant complex logic you might get cooed at, for instance, where a spirit will understand it all.

Also, one need not evoke or make sacrifices to a spirit to urge them forward. Acting or thinking within their nature is good enough: For instance, an old INXS concert, with Michael Hutchence strutting around and tens of thousands of women screaming for him, would be a great place for a Goddess of Lust.

That then raises the question of whether the spirit is birthed from the physical - or vice versa?

Which is something that comes up in a lot of UPG from various sources who claim humanity was GM’d into being from the mammalian species most physically adapted to allow manual dexterity and cranial growth at that time, the primates.

I personally believe this, and believe that certain gods oversee the implantation (if that’s not too bordeline Scientology) of certain souls and soul fragments into human bodies, which is… actually probably a topic for another post, so I’ll get busy typing that up! :slight_smile:

I think it could be both; we encourage its birth due to necessity or desire but theres also that existence of it in a raw form….abit like when you have a problem, there has to be a solution somewhere or the problem couldn’t really exist in the first place “does that make sense” and when both of these parts meet, harmony occurs. I get this same impression with evokation.

Let me say I am impressed with some of the contents in the comments here. It is very useful and inspiring. I am going to have to go back and read these all in depth when I have more time. I am preparing for my own work at the moment though. I just want to bring up one thing for contemplation which may or may not have been brought up. Hopefully not. :wink:

Let us assume that the 72 djinn of the goetia are demonized expression of very ancient forces. Primal forces we must put form and funtion on in order to commune with it. Let us also look at the fact that some of these spirits seek to get back to their places in the celestial realms. Is that not interesting?

Does that not imply the free will of the individual spirit despite what “class” of spirit we try to put them in? Many of their functions can be seen as angelic no? Hmmmm.

Now look at the evolution of these entities from the state of deity and take notice how the etymological trail of man has distorted the original power of these forces in some ways, while bringing a rise to new powers. Powers which are still expressions of the original primal force. Great conversation. I will be back to check in on this one.

Demonic entities get a bad press in general. In reality, I think many are reincarnations of the ancient Gods and powerful sorcerers of earth. They seem to have more knowledge and a deeper connection than many other pantheons. I think the ‘Olympic spirits’ are also great to work with. I have had a great result last year with ‘GELAHP’ …I have reversed his name here as I’ve got connection with him now and therefore, I only use names when it is time to work with them.

We should start a new thread on all the ‘Miss apps’ and failures we’ve had over the years with magic…as this would (or could) be a great learning experience for all of us as we all learn and progress more with failures rather than successes. I think this thread has ran its purpose