What Determines Your Ethics?

Black Magick & The Left Hand Path
1

I’ve put this here because I’m mainly interested in what determines another LHP person’s ethical framework, where by LHP I mean the definitions posted here.

Can values and ethics even meaningfully exist, if we hold nothing as higher than ourselves?

I have my own take on this but want to read some shared thoughts before I spam the thread up with my own, I think that the questions raised by Iam Incide here are worth considering in the wider sense of why we have the values and ethical codes we do.

Sample questions:

  1. If having a child, then killing them in a really brutal, slow, painful, degrading, and horrible way would guarantee you absolute power - would you do it?

  2. If someone doesn’t do what you want them to do, how long would you torture them for? Would you include their children and grandchildren?

  3. Would you set traps for people, to discover if they’re worth your time?

Those are just some ideas to get started, I don’t think there’s a “right” or “wrong” answer to this fwiw, I just want to hear some ideas, general thoughts?

2

For me, What is Beneficial For myself is Good and what is not is Evil

  1. Yes i would, if it guarantee Absolute Power
  2. I would not torture them neither their Children of GrandChildren, With Magick i would end this quickly and Painfully, to save my Energy for Better Things
  3. I do all the time, so Yes, i would do so.
3

I’ll just put the disclaimer first that from the perspective of most, I would probably not be considered LHP. But I fit within the framework of your given definitions (other than some nitpicking of terms such as the idea of a truly “objective” universe and thus the ability to separate oneself from it). With that out of the way…

As a general rule, I consider (like most naturally would, except when overcome with a kind of insanity…) a kind of hedonistic philosophy as a guiding principle; to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. All around. Which means for myself first and foremost but secondarily for others where possible, insofar as there is not conflict of interest. Of course when masochism gets involved all bets are off.

I fail in that principle, a lot. Far more than I care to admit. Anytime I’ve taken a more “responsible” road, rather than what I want…or simply don’t extract maximum pleasure from something. But it’s still a guiding star.

Even if someone holds nothing higher than themselves, they will have difficulty defining “themselves” without allusion to something “other than themselves”…so the individual by definition cannot separate themselves from the world around them at large. Most of what someone would desire also pins itself on others. If someone wants fame, they need some to scream their name. If they want wealth, they need things of value (created by others) to actually buy etc. Thus I would say ethics and certainly values can meaningfully exist, both to provide a concept of who “we” actually are and for the ideal fulfillment of our own desires.

As for your sample questions:

  1. Not on your life. The idea alone brings me more pain than pleasure (even considering the end result). Also skipping to end results can get rather boring. Cliche as it is, at least when someone is out of the bottom of the barrel, the journey is more enjoyable than the destination. That said, I have great interest in the traditional Thai “Kuman Thong” and hope to look into it more next time I am there.

  2. A waste of time and energy.

  3. That’s what divination is for:

4
  1. Never.
  2. I have been a victim of torture myself, and based on my own experience I know that Torture will bring no true information nor can it pressure a person to become an allied. On the contrary, they’ll fill you with lies AND be your enemy for life. So torturing people is really, really counterproductive.
  3. Depends, but in general there are limits to how many mind games I like to play with people. I like to base my relations on trust rather than the opposite. Mindgames tend to undermine trust.
5

In my opinion, no.

Sample questions:
  1. If having a child, then killing them in a really brutal, slow, painful, degrading, and horrible way would guarantee you absolute power - would you do it?

Depends. Do I love the child in this scenario? Is it me personally doing it? Would the child have a greater fate and potentiality if I left them alive? What’s the best/worst thing this kid could end up as?

2. If someone doesn't do what you want them to do, how long would you torture them for? Would you include their children and grandchildren?

Do they know about my magical capabilities?

Either way, it depends. If the matter is small, and short term, I wouldn’t push it more than just annoying them. If the matter is serious however, such as revealing the location of a major interloper in my work or that of an individual who has posed a threat, then, should they not cooperate, their entire bloodline would begin to feel the pressure. May break.

3. Would you set traps for people, to discover if they're worth your time?

Have, am, and will do.

Have to find the useful ones somehow.

6

I go by what feels right and wrong. Conscious be my guide, etc.

No to the first two questions, sure to the third.

7

For me personally 1. Yes very little surpasses more power
2. If people resist me then generally I’d turn to sending demons and wouldn’t really hold back at all. I tend to view stuff like this as some one declaring themselves higher than me, id torture tgem until they submit.
3. If i thought they were lying then yes

beyond that I don’t believe magic and boundaries go hand in hand. What’s the point in having power if you don’t wield it to its full potential ?

8

[quote=“Lady Eva, post:1, topic:7720”]Sample questions:

  1. If having a child, then killing them in a really brutal, slow, painful, degrading, and horrible way would guarantee you absolute power - would you do it?

  2. If someone doesn’t do what you want them to do, how long would you torture them for? Would you include their children and grandchildren?

  3. Would you set traps for people, to discover if they’re worth your time?

Those are just some ideas to get started, I don’t think there’s a “right” or “wrong” answer to this fwiw, I just want to hear some ideas, general thoughts?[/quote]

Electric that I am I believe in the wiccan rede and the threefold law. The Asthar Command that is assigned to watch over the spiritual development of this planet claims that Karmic forces are very much real. My caballistic training also has me in awe of the supreme tetragrammaton. The cornerstone of my craft is none other than the doctrine of virtue. That is the supreme ideology that guides me. I believe it is connected to the 6th dimensional galactic guardian level of consciousness. An advanced will that is guided by virtue denies ignorance, pettiness, carnality, sensuality, greed, and materialism in favor of congress with the Elohim. One of the precursors to this is to become a prince of equilibrium, meaning that evil is seen in the good, and good is seen in the evil. From this comes utilization of will to work towards unity and accord between divine and infernal forces. It is like being an attorney in some ways. This may be connected to the approach to the grade of ipsissimus, because as the old saying goes, “very little is evil to the advanced mage.”

How you you ever get away with killing a little child? You are going to the big house or the death chamber for that. Lady Eva may have been courted by the nefarious white lodge that is above the law and gets away with shit like that. If someone does not do what I want them to do I would rather cast a grandiose control ritual once that gets the job done than constantly stick it to them. Magickal traps are very complex, they can be created in a way that ensnares the assholes, while not trapping people who don’t deserve it.

9

lol!! It should be fairly obvious that those examples are all taken from the teachings of the Abrahamic faiths, those weird desert cults whose “god” and associated thought-forms, and social impact, I have little regard for.

  1. Jesus, various saints and martyrs, plus by extension any human born into suffering yet supposedly the child of an all-powerful and all-merciful “God”;

  2. the concept of eternal damnation:

“Surely, God has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire wherein they will abide for ever.”
~ Qu’ran 33:64

Also, carried down the generations:

"Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”
~ Exodus 34:6 - 7

(Plus Exodus 20:4 -5 & Numbers 14:18)

  1. Adam & Eve, and any situation in which a supposedly omnisicient and omnipotent “God” permits temptations to entrap people into the aforementioned eteranl damnation and generational curses.

My personal answer is HELL NO to all 3. :wink:

But I was curious how many people who shun these faiths actually embrace some of their underpinnings, the “troll god” stuff, which is why I said there wasn’t a right or wrong answer, since millions of people have lived and died embracing a being that does this stuff.

10

lol!! It should be fairly obvious that those examples are all taken from the teachings of the Abrahamic faiths, those weird desert cults whose “god” and associated thought-forms, and social impact, I have little regard for.

  1. Jesus, various saints and martyrs, plus by extension any human born into suffering yet supposedly the child of an all-powerful and all-merciful “God”;

  2. the concept of eternal damnation:

“Surely, God has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire wherein they will abide for ever.”
~ Qu’ran 33:64

Also, carried down the generations:

"Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”
~ Exodus 34:6 - 7

(Plus Exodus 20:4 -5 & Numbers 14:18)

  1. Adam & Eve, and any situation in which a supposedly omnisicient and omnipotent “God” permits temptations to entrap people into the aforementioned eteranl damnation and generational curses.

My personal answer is HELL NO to all 3. :wink:

But I was curious how many people who shun these faiths actually embrace some of their underpinnings, the “troll god” stuff, which is why I said there wasn’t a right or wrong answer, since millions of people have lived and died embracing a being that does this stuff.[/quote]

The first one made me think of the Test of Abraham, believe it or not.

Also, wouldn’t ‘‘absolute power’’ technically give me the power to resurrect my dead child?

Anyway, I do think this is an interesting question, on wehther morality can exist without having something to always enforce it.

11

You are only Reflecting your own Existence. Such a child could simply choose an Alternate world to reflect its own existence, which would be bad upon you if you ever chose a negative path. A child in a sense is already a mutation into an Alternate World so it actually becomes counter productive to become negative.

So to give an example:

You decide to kill your child, and in this version such a kid is “christlike.” It works it kill the child.

Alternate Version: child has an awareness of self-preservation and a good number of beings already do… especially if they show any amount of resistance or a rebellious streak chances are they have that innate blueprint of self-preservation. So when you send negativity at the child he will simply mirror it back, with his knowledge level it would only help him and be bad upon you… since the Transfer of Essence goes to Mother to Child.

So from this perspective is it moral from a Normal Person and even a Magicians Perspective? The answer to all of that is given what I said you are only mirroring your own reality.

You can actually take this situation and play it out what is happening in the world today. In some instances you have alot of screwed over people (economically, spiritually or otherwise), but then some people are rebelling and not taking crap and so certain individual the tables are being turned on them.

12

The murdering of a family member is one of the means of attaining spiritual power in the African traditions, with that comes great power but eventually always ends up causing more harm for the person than good. (Extended family has been trying for years, its a thing that happens quite often.)

In short empathy determines ethics, not as in do unto others, but as in what I may empathize with, I may see myself or my consciousness within. In a BALG framework, to shut off empathy is to say you are not present within the person or animal you have chosen to harm. To say you are not present within something is to say you don’t understand its perspective and have no power over it. This undercuts omni-presence/science/potence.

Also mirror neurons, if you see or imagine people getting hurt, the same neurons in your body fire. This is why we feel embarrassment or fear for characters when watching shit, and that’s just simulated.

As grey as things may get, we all strive to be ethical even if we do something “wrong” we still think about it and feel something before we do it. Its hard to explain, but being unethical always comes from a place of lack or weakness. If you have all your desires met, you wont feel the need to be unethical. The most powerful of all the deities and the lord of Saturn is usually obsessed with upholding truth, justice and morality from Narayanaya to Thoth to Enki, they are usually the ones who are so moved by the plight of humanity that they desire to help.

Lastly, power corrupts but ethics ensure that you are not consumed by the power and don’t let it destroy you. I’ve seen it happen. Ideally being more ethical will make you more powerful and becoming more powerful will also make you more ethical.

13

It depends on the relationship, to me there is no set of ethics outside which a group 2 or more decide on implicitly or not. The ends do justify the means.

”[quote="
-Ian Brady"]Can there be any objective doubt, in those of you wisely conversant with the wiles and ways of human nature and man’s infinite capacity to rationalise every atrocity there is, that the main psychological reason why most people do not pray to the Prince of Darkness, had they robust spirit to do so, is that it would be tantamount to worshipping themselves, thus confirming a nature they would piously deny?

Is not evil man’s true element of delight, the dominating psyche he naturally luxuriates in and is drawn inexorably to embrace? A source of spontaneous vitality and verve, evil banishes the mundane barriers of ‘normal’ existence, galvanising the senses and lending a fresh vibrancy to the world.

It is a facet of character man thoroughly enjoys in the darkness of mind and bed most of his life. Intoxication without artificial stimulants.”

-Ian Brady[/quote]

14

personally, I already know I possess absolute power. So the first question doesn’t make sense to me – who would be granting me absolute power if I did that? I already possess all the sovereignty in my own being, and I either possess all power I need or know how to obtain it.
Also to me personally torture or killing is such a disgusting and insecure act. People who do that (historically) do it only because they feel that someone else could have power over them so the only way to take that away would be to literally eliminate that source of enmity.

To me being a sinister witch (left hand path) means knowing people only have power over me if I let them. And because I don’t let them have power over me, they don’t.

Of course, this is not always as easy as it sounds because I grew up in a right hand path society… :stuck_out_tongue:

So to me becoming a living god is recognizing we already are living gods by weeding through our beliefs and keeping only those which serve and reaffirm our personal sovereignty and eliminating the rest

15

I have a simple rules:

  1. I do not do black magic on innocent people, or those who made harm to me due to accident, too much alcohol, by a stupid mistake, etc., and they feel stupid afterwards and know that they behaved stupid. It happens to everybody, no need to curse someone in that case.

  2. I do not have any moral issues to put even the blackest curse on a person, whose intent was to harm me, make me feel bad, destroy my relations, health an so on. When it was done on purpose, and the person is not regretting own behaviors and is even happy with it. Than, let the life of that person go to the real bottom.

  3. I am strongly against killing as a curse (unless you want to kill a serial murderer). Kill is not a curse to our victim, but is a curse and pain to all of family and friends. They have to live in misery, instead our target. The role of cursing is to make our target live in misery, so it’s quite opposite from the goal of cursing.

16

Sure I get behind the whole magician stands by their own law kind of thing but you have to question it.

Why would I brutally kill someone for power? Is it because I never had or knew what real power was?

How about if I chose not to harm anyone? Is it because I know what real power is? Or am I being influenced by something else? Duality?

Do we really make up our own ethics? Or is it something that evolves over time depending on what we teach ourselves through trials and tribulations, cause and effect ect.? Are our ethics made out of choice or are they given to us? I mean if we loose everything that influences us to create personal ethics would personal ethics even be a thing?

Those were all rhetorical questions by the way. If absolute power was on the table I’d spit in it’s face and walk away so I can steal it later. And if it wasn’t I’d take it for myself just to throw it away because I’m a living contradiction.

In conclusion, I’ll give everything and nothing within the multiverse the finger and do nothing. I’ll just be. :slight_smile:

17

[quote=“Lady Eva, post:1, topic:7720”]I’ve put this here because I’m mainly interested in what determines another LHP person’s ethical framework, where by LHP I mean the definitions posted here.

Can values and ethics even meaningfully exist, if we hold nothing as higher than ourselves?

I have my own take on this but want to read some shared thoughts before I spam the thread up with my own, I think that the questions raised by Iam Incide here are worth considering in the wider sense of why we have the values and ethical codes we do.

Sample questions:

  1. If having a child, then killing them in a really brutal, slow, painful, degrading, and horrible way would guarantee you absolute power - would you do it?

  2. If someone doesn’t do what you want them to do, how long would you torture them for? Would you include their children and grandchildren?

  3. Would you set traps for people, to discover if they’re worth your time?

Those are just some ideas to get started, I don’t think there’s a “right” or “wrong” answer to this fwiw, I just want to hear some ideas, general thoughts?[/quote]

  1. No, why should I, absolute power is already mine. The “exchange” is a illusion. You can not grant me what I already have.

  2. No, all obey me. If they do not is t is because I allow them to disobey me.

  3. I set traps to teach you to be more aware. To make you strong. So no one can do to you what I have done

18

I think Lady Eva sets traps :wink:

Don’t worry your secret is safe with me. Threads like this show me that there’s honesty in brutality.