We created gods?

I am saying you don’t use your own magick. Assume the spirit does all the work and you play no part except asking the spirit. And someone else asks the spirit.

The more developed person will get better results despite them not even contributing to the magickal results.

Many people have already answered your question, we’ve already told you that yes, you have to practice, yes somebody newer might have a less evocative experience. Very few people have the ability to just jump right in and be proficient.

Many have also told you about how spirits use your subconscious perception of them to manifest to you, and by extension that means if they sense they can’t manifest to you, they’ll try communicating with you in another way, this is why people do divination or read omens.

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For example, I hold my hand up and ask you to give me a high five. I make no effort to move my hand to make the high-five easier for you. You just hit my hand. If you do that with two people, they should get the same results.

False, this is an assumption based on what experience?

I’ve made posts about my past where spirits intervened in my life, saving me from arrests when I used to be a delinquent, I made no petition or pact, didn’t even believe in them at the time. My experience contradicts your claim, I’m going to call bullshit.

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You replied before I pressed reply

Except, I got great results without asking spirits to do anything, without even believing they exist. I do understand what you’re saying.

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I think the combination of your inferiority complex and your condescending attitude towards spirits is going to prove a great hindrance to you on your journey.

How? I am just trying to piece together the truth.

Gods and Daemons have been belittled by people from not only the Abrahamic religions, but also people from the psychological paradigm. You think a spirit wants to help somebody delusional enough to think they’re not sentient beings?

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definitely not condescending. i respect spirits.

I never claimed they were subconscious or that I believed that

The way I see it, you’re arrogant enough to assume all the favors and blessings they may bestow upon you was your own doing. Why would spirits help somebody with that kind of mentality? They like praise in exchange for help. They had this kind of relationship with humans for thousands of years.

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I have given them offerings many times. Even though I never got results from evocations.

I honestly think you need to start believing in yourself, you seem to be in quite a negative mind frame, im not saying that to attack you, i think its possible you dont even realise, you need to start believing that you can do these things like evocation astral travel, if you just keep saying you cant then you will never be able to. Most people didnt go into this beimg able to do all these thimgs it takes work and dedication, so instead of just thinking you cant tell yourself youre working on these things and as for evocation and such like keep at it and your energy will get stronger.

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I’m going to make one final statement and I am done here. @anon84896414, if you want to make any progress at all I would suggest Works of Darkness and Evoking Eternity by Koetting. Or Initiation into Hermetics and The Practice of Magical Evocation by Bardon. Either pair of books will get you there. I would lean a bit more to Bardon’s books. Acquire them and get to work.

Forget the internet. Forget he said, she said. You are spinning your wheels and wasting everyone’s time with endless armchair debates and endless theorizing. Constantly switching from one thing to another in hopes of finding the magic pill to success in these things. You lack focus and you will never get anywhere like that.

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Were your requests statistically possible? Did you have this same opinion of them, based on what some douchebag thinks at the time? I told you already that your mentality can skew results.

Nope. Never even knew about this theory until I came on this forum

Then try again, or better yet, expand upon your psychic abilities, then evoke them again. If it fails, evoke again and again. Very few people have success on their first evocation, I recall Koetting talking about how he had to try multiple times too.

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I have evoked many times. I have evoked everyday for a long time

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Keep at it

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