Venus and Revenge? Maybe a jealous lover?

I was reading over my copy of The Keys to the Gateways of Magic today when I came across the description of The god-name Tetragrammaton Sabaoth who rules over Venus, it reads
"That is the God of Hosts, his Numeration is Nezah, that is triumph & Victory the Right Column is applied to it, & it signifies the Eternity & Justice of a Revenging God" It goes on to talk about the intelligences of Venus.

This makes it sound as though the planet Venus is all about revenge and not really love. I admit. I have never worked with Venus and I am hoping that someone who has can shed some light on this, as everything else I have read seems to point to Venus being a love planet, not an avenging intelligence.

It’s also about passion and self indulgence both of which go hand in hand with revenge.

[quote=“Orismen, post:1, topic:3257”]I was reading over my copy of The Keys to the Gateways of Magic today when I came across the description of The god-name Tetragrammaton Sabaoth who rules over Venus, it reads
"That is the God of Hosts, his Numeration is Nezah, that is triumph & Victory the Right Column is applied to it, & it signifies the Eternity & Justice of a Revenging God" It goes on to talk about the intelligences of Venus.

This makes it sound as though the planet Venus is all about revenge and not really love. I admit. I have never worked with Venus and I am hoping that someone who has can shed some light on this, as everything else I have read seems to point to Venus being a love planet, not an avenging intelligence.[/quote]

My experience of Netzach is that the ‘vengeance’ is simply an obstacle that is meant to be overcome, and thus learned from. Thus, the victory is achieved.

You grow through experience, sometimes fear, sometimes pain. Thus, Venus is not about ‘love’, per-Se, it’s about growth. The love is as a mother loves a child, watching it grow.

Is that always a ‘pleasant’ experience?

Make of it what you will.

Venus is about passion, whether that passion is for another person, or going to war for a cause. In any situation where a person is passionate about something, they are said to be under the aegis of Venus.

my two cents: Inanna is attributed to Venus. She is some kind of fertility godess but also is godess of war. Look at this part of the exaltation of Inanna writen by a priestess of Nanna:

“Like a dragon you have deposited venom on the land
When you roar at the earth like Thonder, no vegetation can stand up to you.
A flood descending from its mountain,
Oh foremost one, you are the Inanna of heaven and earth!
Raining the fanned fire down upon the nation,
Endowed with me’s by An, lady mounted on a beast,
Who makes decisions at the holy command of An.
You of all the great rites, who can fathom what is yours?”

Edit: It is a very powerful text to use in an evocation of this godess. Just by reading it you can feel the power coming out from this words.

I remember Julius Cesar used to proclaim that he was a descendant of Venus the Goddess, and he was a violent motherfucker. Perhaps it is the passion.

There is a very stern and dominating nightside of Venus that I’ve experienced. See current 182 for such wrathful Venusian energies.

Venus Erycina, a Sicilian import, was promised a temple on the Capitoline in 217 by Fabius Maximus. Venus Erycina was concerned with military matters and prostitutes.

The Mayans believed Venus was a warlike god, quite opposite from the buxom loving female image a lot of modern astrologers associate the planet with:

"The planet Venus was particularly significant to the Maya; the important god Quetzalcoatl, for example, is identified with Venus. The Dresden Codex, one of four surviving Maya chronicles, contains an extensive tabulation of the appearances of Venus, and was used to predict the future.

The Maya also went to war by the sky, again triggered by the planet Venus. Venus war regalia is seen on stelae and other carvings, and raids and captures were timed by appearances of Venus, particularly as an evening “star”. Warfare related to the movements of Venus was, in fact, well established throughout Mesoamerica."

http://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/civil/maya/mmc07eng.shtml

I can’t find any other really awesome sources but I remember learning this in school, and then being reminded of it by a friend who was interested in south American history, it’s not a field I know too much about.

A lot of goddesses associated with Venus weren’t all love. Ishtar, Asherah, Aphrodite. They could all fuck over just as well as bless.

[quote=“Lady Eva, post:9, topic:3257”]The Mayans believed Venus was a warlike god, quite opposite from the buxom loving female image a lot of modern astrologers associate the planet with:

"The planet Venus was particularly significant to the Maya; the important god Quetzalcoatl, for example, is identified with Venus. The Dresden Codex, one of four surviving Maya chronicles, contains an extensive tabulation of the appearances of Venus, and was used to predict the future.

The Maya also went to war by the sky, again triggered by the planet Venus. Venus war regalia is seen on stelae and other carvings, and raids and captures were timed by appearances of Venus, particularly as an evening “star”. Warfare related to the movements of Venus was, in fact, well established throughout Mesoamerica."

http://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/civil/maya/mmc07eng.shtml

I can’t find any other really awesome sources but I remember learning this in school, and then being reminded of it by a friend who was interested in south American history, it’s not a field I know too much about.[/quote]

Modern astrologers? My dear, when the Mayans were just entering their ‘classical period’, the astrology which is still the basis of what is taught in the West had already been developed for some two thousand years by civilisations that reached heights of which Mesoamerican barbarians couldn’t even dream.

[quote=“Poete Maudit, post:11, topic:3257”][quote=“Lady Eva, post:9, topic:3257”]The Mayans believed Venus was a warlike god, quite opposite from the buxom loving female image a lot of modern astrologers associate the planet with:

"The planet Venus was particularly significant to the Maya; the important god Quetzalcoatl, for example, is identified with Venus. The Dresden Codex, one of four surviving Maya chronicles, contains an extensive tabulation of the appearances of Venus, and was used to predict the future.

The Maya also went to war by the sky, again triggered by the planet Venus. Venus war regalia is seen on stelae and other carvings, and raids and captures were timed by appearances of Venus, particularly as an evening “star”. Warfare related to the movements of Venus was, in fact, well established throughout Mesoamerica."

http://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/civil/maya/mmc07eng.shtml

I can’t find any other really awesome sources but I remember learning this in school, and then being reminded of it by a friend who was interested in south American history, it’s not a field I know too much about.[/quote]

Modern astrologers? My dear, when the Mayans were just entering their ‘classical period’, the astrology which is still the basis of what is taught in the West had already been developed for some two thousand years by civilisations that reached heights of which Mesoamerican barbarians couldn’t even dream.[/quote]

Well, I’ll give you a small lesson on the meaning of classical versus contemporary.

In Chinese Medicine, it has the same context as Western Astrology.

This may shock some of you but “classical” does not denote the same meaning many of you think it does.

The “Classical” period of these arts is the only one that’s really remotely accurate, and usable. It represents original knowledge and practice. In Chinese Medicine we find that to be a 5,000 year old truth, and aside from an incident with the first emperor of China, and with Mao, there has been little to disturb that procession for 5,000 years, the same cannot be said in the West about your astrology or anything you practice.

The “Contemporary” exists as a watered down version of the classical, made for people of the modern day to find the subject easier to understand and use, and robbed of its context and understandings, existing as nothing more than a shadow of the original.

In “modern” astrology they say they like to get away from extremely fatalist and exacting readings that you would get in classical astrology and saw them as extremes and psychologically debilitating especially to people who weren’t familiar with the system. Well it’s not the first time meat had to be put away for the men, and milk furnished for the babes.

Many dark occult lodge pays a good deal of money to have at least 1 “classical” astrologer on staff because A): It is not easy to learn, and to learn it properly requires more than just books. To master it truly takes time, experts I’ve run into have honed their craft after decades, B): it works better than any competitive alternative…I.E. the “contemporary”

Classical arts are often like this, because of their staggering degree of complexity they are not easy to learn. They often seem tedious and obtuse to those unfamiliar with them. These arts are often best learned from another who has accomplished them and has a track record for decades, or a linage of masters that stretches quite a ways.

Now, the question is about their astrology and it’s quality…

But how can we argue if it’s with what they built? What they left us is enough to show something, but what?

If you’re going to talk about how crude their knowledge of astrology, I’d like to point out at many of the “more impressive” monoliths the Maya made, such as Chichen Itza and Tulum, they arranged the core of their cities to be precisely aligned to several celestial influences and arrangements, they had incredible knowledge of math built in to demonstrate they understood these arrangements and they took extra care at places like Chicen Itza (with the dragon’s ascent and descent marked by the progression of moving shadows cast in the form of isosceles triangles specifically on the solstice). If these were so obvious to Western systems, why are they unique to recent urban designs of Washington D.C., Paris, & London. Why do the astrological arrangements on the solstice and otherwise that happen in these cities, seem much less impressive than when they occur at the Mayan monoliths.

This design is an old one you know, because the concept was designed by Hermes himself.

Vatican city and Rome also have a fascinating display of aspects this architecture of design also.

It is also important to note that the design of those cities (D.C., Paris, London [after the great fire]) came from a resurfacing of ancient Hermetic knowledge from this so called “classical” period as well.

I’ve seen how precisely these astrological alignments these so called “barbarians” were doing, and let me tell you they are precise beyond all reason, when many people who are genetically related to the builders live nearby in huts and shanties, with no electricity, clean water, toilet, and many times less than 4 walls separating them from the Jungle and they have attained this crippling backward hundreds of years later. They WERE civilized, I believe you mean to say, the Catholic Church destroyed their history, their culture, their spirituality, intentionally destroyed their advanced knowledge of math and turned them into Barbarians intentionally, to keep them as slaves incarnating here forever. To say these people had a shoddy understanding of astrology compared to the West is a joke and a farse.

We don’t know much about what they knew, because the church burnt all their books with the exception of 4 codecies, the Dresden Codex Lady Eva mentions is one of these that survived, and it is perhaps the most frequently mentioned one I’ve heard professional anthropologists talk about to discuss Mayan Astrology as an authoritative and informative resource.

If you’re going to question it’s relevance, I’d like to ask you about 2 subjects.

1.) I’d like to know how Mayans were so accurate with their astrology they understood the concept of procession of the equinoxes, as if a human with that level of technology would notice the change of alignment of a star moving 1 degree in the sky over 72 years when in many European countries you were lucky to make it past 30 years old… This detail was written into their calendar as if it was absolutely fucking obvious to everyone. This wasn’t known to us in the West centuries ago. The only way someone can attain it is with mathematical calculation, but the question is, how are they getting accurate numbers for these calculations?

So that means they were more advanced than us…Modern people.

Unless of course you’d like to fight wikipedia which says the same knowledge was known of as “planetary precession, as early as 1863”…

2.) I’d like to know why if we were so advanced in the West, was this knowledge that was only really in the hands of the Egyptians and Mayans first, and although it doesn’t survive in any of their writings, why does it occupy the layout of some incredible megalithic structures, cities, and even calendars, and why does it govern the design and placement of some of their most important monuments and temples?

I’d like to remind you the most ancient residents of Egypt and forward thinking “Egyptologists” say that is how Cairo was fashioned, to be a celestial map of the heavens, or at least what they looked like 10,500 years ago. Recent astrological and geological research has also proven this to be the case (Orion). The significance for astrological rituals being done, was that the people were just “acting out” or guiding celestial events.

The Maya were brilliant mathematicians, they were excellent astronomers, but there is a degree of accuracy to these things that few people attempt to explore. I cannot attribute to any “human attainment” of such information at this time period with the given technology, when these people had no telescopes and lived in mud huts. These cities you see, the only ones who lived inside the city walls were usually priests and royals. No one else was allowed near or in these sacred spaces, unless it was to defend it from being attacked.

Sources you can check for most of this information

  1. Keeper of Genesis
  2. Master Game
  3. Fingerprints of the Gods
  4. Wikipedia and Google
  5. Life and personal travel to these ruins and cities like I have.

Good Luck and Godspeed,
-Frater Apotheosis

Which civilisations are you thinking of?

The ancient Babylonians, for example, considered Venus to be the “star” of Ishtar, who was, among other things, a war goddess, and neither cuddly nor maternal, and nothing like the more benevolent modern archetype.

[quote=“Frater Apotheosis, post:12, topic:3257”][/quote]

Well, I’ll give you a small lesson on the meaning of classical versus contemporary.[/quote]

Not ‘classical’ as in ‘classical astrology’, but ‘classical’ as in the name given to the Maya ‘civilisation’ between 250-900 AD by historians. SO much for your patronising ‘lesson’. I find much of your subsequent barely-coherent rambling to miss the point as a response to what I said.

This may shock some of you but "classical" does not denote the same meaning many of you think it does.

I don’t believe you know what I think ‘classical’ means, and I certainly don’t require lessons in the English language from you.

The "Classical" period of these arts is the only one that's really remotely accurate, and usable. It represents original knowledge and practice.

There’s some truth to that …

In Chinese Medicine we find that to be a 5,000 year old truth, and aside from an incident with the first emperor of China, and with Mao, there has been little to disturb that procession for 5,000 years, the same cannot be said in the West about your astrology or anything you practice.

… and then you go off the deep end. Yes, I’m afraid the same can be said of the West, the legendary ‘dark ages’ that never actually happened notwithstanding.

The "Contemporary" exists as a watered down version of the classical, made for people of the modern day to find the subject easier to understand and use, and robbed of its context and understandings, existing as nothing more than a shadow of the original.

That is certainly true, however it is nevertheless a distorted and watered down version of a science that has been practised in these parts of the world for some 4,000 years or more and were codified long before the Maya. Which brings us to the actual case in point: the association of Venus with a goddess of love is not ‘modern’ but ancient in its origins.

In "modern" astrology they say they like to get away from extremely fatalist and exacting readings that you would get in classical astrology and saw them as extremes and psychologically debilitating especially to people who weren't familiar with the system. Well it's not the first time meat had to be put away for the men, and milk furnished for the babes.

This is also true.

If you're going to talk about how crude their knowledge of astrology,

I never claimed their knowledge of such was ‘crude’.

I’d like to point out at many of the “more impressive” monoliths the Maya made, such as Chichen Itza and Tulum, they arranged the core of their cities to be precisely aligned to several celestial influences and arrangements, they had incredible knowledge of math built in to demonstrate they understood these arrangements and they took extra care at places like Chicen Itza (with the dragon’s ascent and descent marked by the progression of moving shadows cast in the form of isosceles triangles specifically on the solstice).

If these were so obvious to Western systems, why are they unique to recent urban designs of Washington D.C., Paris, & London. Why do the astrological arrangements on the solstice and otherwise that happen in these cities, seem much less impressive than when they occur at the Mayan

Taking your claims at face value, here’s just a little problematic assumption there that knowledge of x would necessarily imply doing y, which is absurd. Be that as it may, we both can makes all sorts of claims from sketchy sources:

http://www.halexandria.org/dward758.htm

They WERE civilized, I believe you mean to say, the Catholic Church destroyed their history, their culture, their spirituality, intentionally destroyed their advanced knowledge of math and turned them into Barbarians intentionally, to keep them as slaves incarnating here forever.

No, I don’t mean to say. They kept themselves as barbarians and had already rotted their ‘civilisation’ from the inside out by the time the Spanish came and the other Mesoamerican tribes gladly helped the small bands of Europeans to wage war on a despised bunch of cannibalistic thugs. They, along with the Aztecs, were a pox upon the earth and deserved to be wiped out.

To say these people had a shoddy understanding of astrology compared to the West is a joke and a farse.

It was the other poster who made the mocking allusion to the Western tradition of Venus being associated with a goddess of love. But then your ressentiment for European culture and civilisation and hardon for the barbarisms of the noble savage is evident enough. You’ve just stacked the deck to get the ‘intellectual’ result you already want.

1.) I'd like to know how Mayans were so accurate with their astrology they understood the concept of procession of the equinoxes, as if a human with that level of technology would notice the change of alignment of a star moving 1 degree in the sky over 72 years when in many European countries you were lucky to make it past 30 years old..

Procession? I think you mean precession: how about getting the word right before you decide to write little essays on the subject.

So you claim, without even a citation. But since you appear so fond of citing Wikipedia:

There has been speculation that the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar is somehow calibrated against the precession, but this view is not held by professional scholars of Mayan civilization. Milbrath states, however, that "a long cycle 30,000 years involving the Pleiades … may have been an effort to calculate the precession of the equinox.

Yes, I will simply claim that what you are saying is an outright made-up falsehood.

What you are trying to prove by your reference to European life-expectancy is anyone’s guess, but Maya life expectancy was about the same

Few studies have separated mortality rates by gender, but a life expectancy of twenty-five to thrity-five years seems common in archaeological populations of the Maya area (Chase 1997; Cohen et al. 1997)

Ancient Maya Women
edited by Traci Ardren

First, the life expectancy of the Maya was low, with few living past the age of 40.

Last Rites for the Tipu Maya: Genetic Structuring in a Colonial Cemetery
By Keith P. Jacobi

Moreover, what you say isn’t strictly true. These are life expectancies at birth, which are only so low due to very high infant mortality rates. Life expectancy at adulthood in Europe was in the mid-sixties i.e. within a decade of what it is today.

This detail was written into their calendar as if it was absolutely fucking obvious to everyone. This wasn't known to us in the West centuries ago. The only way someone can attain it is with mathematical calculation, but the question is, how are they getting accurate numbers for these calculations?

That is absolutely false. The pehenomenon of axial precession has been known in the West since the Hellenistic age at least.

So that means they were more advanced than us...Modern people.

Non sequitur, even assuming the truth of your premises.

Oh dear, oh dear. The typical blathering of a layman who has never studied mathematics beyond school level. Yes, yes, more advanced than us, with our real analysis, differential geometry, vector calculus and group theory.

2.) I'd like to know why if we were so advanced in the West, was this knowledge that was only really in the hands of the Egyptians and Mayans first, and although it doesn't survive in any of their writings, why does it occupy the layout of some incredible megalithic structures, cities, and even calendars, and why does it govern the design and placement of some of their most important monuments and temples?

So you claim. I’m getting tired now.

Sources you can check for most of this information 1. Keeper of Genesis 2. Master Game 3. Fingerprints of the Gods 4. Wikipedia and Google 5. Life and personal travel to these ruins and cities like I have.

I.e. works rejected by virtually every historian, personal anecdote, and … WIKIPEDIA!

Congratulations!

Which civilisations are you thinking of?[/quote]

Athens, Rome, Persia … to name a few.

The ancient Babylonians, for example, considered Venus to be the "star" of Ishtar, who was, among other things, a war goddess, and neither cuddly nor maternal, and nothing like the more benevolent modern archetype

Yes. Venus has never been much of a “mother goddess” in any case. But to say they are ‘nothing like’ is just hyperbole.

That is perhaps a matter of opinion, however, I invite you to compare this definition of the Planet Venus on a major modern astrology site:

http://www.tarot.com/astrology/planets/venus

With the information on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar#Characteristics

^ The second one describes a being closer to the characteristics the Mayans ascribe to Venus, and closer to being an “avenging intelligence” which may I remind everyone was the original question:

What you describe of the Maya sounds more like Mars, but it in any case it completely glosses over the erotic essence of the sphere, while the fluffy-bunny paganism just distorts the demonic nature of its love. So, no, I quite agree with your observation.

Yes, the original question: it assumes a contradiction exists between ‘avenging intelligence’ and ‘planet of love’, probably because of the multiple different ideas parading themselves under the banner of this word ‘love’.

Every planetary sphere has higher and lower aspects- the intelligence and the demon if you will. Everyone should know this. But I suppose New Agers and fluffy-bunny ‘pagans’ love to white-wash ‘nature’.

1 Like

[quote=“Poete Maudit, post:17, topic:3257”]What you describe of the Maya sounds more like Mars, but it in any case it completely glosses over the erotic essence of the sphere, while the fluffy-bunny paganism just distorts the demonic nature of its love. So, no, I quite agree with your observation.

Yes, the original question: it assumes a contradiction exists between ‘avenging intelligence’ and ‘planet of love’, probably because of the multiple different ideas parading themselves under the banner of this word ‘love’.

Every planetary sphere has higher and lower aspects- the intelligence and the demon if you will. Everyone should know this. But I suppose New Agers and fluffy-bunny ‘pagans’ love to white-wash ‘nature’.[/quote]

PASSION, and SELF INDULGENCE.

The positive aspect of this combination would seem like love, however it is a cheap imitation when you consider it’s composition. (sexual) Passion is controlled and the state it generates is of sexual mania, that becomes coupled with self indulgence that makes women who are Ice Queens to spread their legs for anyone… This type of manic sexual “indulgence” is what most humans would obviously apply this energy for, and would wrongly and cheaply assert its love.

After these workings are performed, the workings have this oft tendency to revolt the person who cast the ritual, to the point of disowning this person they did it on. This happens because they aren’t getting love…Most people have this “feeling” that they know it’s wrong. The truth is they feel it’s off. They know it’s wrong, and that the person doesn’t in fact love them, but they are manically obsessed with them, and loose all respect for the person. They are just testing the boundaries of this relationship, and finding it is not exactly what they expected. Even if you’d like to hit it and quit it per say, you might have a stalker. This person never has the balls to admit it, but they sexually exploit the person until it is no longer convenient, and then toss them aside without a care in the world saying “how deranged they were”. Yeah well who’s fault is that? Once again, the person doing the ritual becomes passionate and self indulgent about how they conduct the affair, at the expense of others.

Next time you picture Venus, burning like a ball of fire in your minds eye, ask yourself about the fiery and passionate nature of Venus.

Some women use love spells on men and forget about them, like the classical “girl get’s married an ex boyfriend shows up…” you know, the one she broke up with 3 years ago who just can’t get it through his head that “it’s over” comes to the woman’s wedding and starts shooting her and everyone there, because…

"IF HE CAN’T HAVE HER, NOBODY CAN!!!"
PASSION -------- SELF INDULGENCE

Even Catcher in the Rye sounds like a better excuse for a mass shooting than that.

Just my humble opinion though,
-Frater Apotheosis

In Chinese Medicine we find that to be a 5,000 year old truth, and aside from an incident with the first emperor of China, and with Mao, there has been little to disturb that procession for 5,000 years, the same cannot be said in the West about your astrology or anything you practice.

… and then you go off the deep end. Yes, I’m afraid the same can be said of the West, the legendary ‘dark ages’ that never actually happened notwithstanding.


I’m not sure if you’re being facetious especially with your use of a double negative, and there are people in my life that thoroughly do not understand how much the Church has held back progress, so forgive me for proper response as I’m not sure if it’s warranted.

Yes, 1200 years of ignorance, combined with a European crusade and Hundreds of Years of inquisitions, that were mostly about stealing property until they ran out and actually had to look back into their archives 200 years later when looking for information they had gathered and let sit for centuries in the Vatican Archives to look for these supposed “heretics” they fought the Crusade against. Many of the mystery schools such as freemasonry are supposedly organizations that have survived these events and distribute this encoded knowledge in symbolism and secret code to protect it.

These centuries of inquisitions are thoroughly documented and the parallels between the Nazi Holocaust are incredibly obvious if you just look, the Church was even responsible for forcing Jews to wear the star during this period to properly identify them.

The church went through Europe and did Nazi book Burning 1.0, they gathered practically all the books and burned them, even if they were Christian texts, like say for instance, you were a Christian who got the lords prayer translated into one’s own language, just having this on a piece of paper is not only enough to have you slowly burnt on a stake being cooked by a small fire (to be made example of), but it meant that your entire families property was to be confiscated.

The "Contemporary" exists as a watered down version of the classical, made for people of the modern day to find the subject easier to understand and use, and robbed of its context and understandings, existing as nothing more than a shadow of the original.

That is certainly true, however it is nevertheless a distorted and watered down version of a science that has been practised in these parts of the world for some 4,000 years or more and were codified long before the Maya. Which brings us to the actual case in point: the association of Venus with a goddess of love is not ‘modern’ but ancient in its origins.

Venus held a particular importance for the Mayans. Venus was connected with the major deity Quetzalcoatl, this deity is strongly associated with the forces of death and resurrection as well…

Refer to my statement IN THE PREVIOUS POST regarding my clarification of what I believe this planetary magick CAN be like,

I was someone who loved the idea of such spells, but having employed them in my life, I have seen that I didn’t understand these things could backfire so horribly because I thought of them as love related and couldn’t grasp the mechanics of it. The truth is, this is the real reason why people say stuff like “if you use a love spell you can’t guarantee this person’s fidelity to you” is for one main reason. The qualities of it’s own nature. For example just generating this energy to try and get someone incredibly horny to fuck you, might in fact result in them coming to fuck you within less than 24 hours, and when you feel them from the inside you may stumble upon this sad realization that someone, if not several people have managed to beat you there first.

Sometimes this really is more about a state of confusion and obsession more than it is of love.

PASSION and SELF INDULGENCE

A love like or sexual obsession, combined with self indulgence (this person’s desire to satisfy themselves without consequence or regard to others), is a powerful combination to ignite in someone, but a dangerous one to ignite in anyone you care about.

Poet said,

Taking your claims at face value, here’s just a little problematic assumption there that knowledge of x would necessarily imply doing y, which is absurd. Be that as it may, we both can makes all sorts of claims from sketchy sources:

http://www.halexandria.org/dward758.htm


Where have I heard the idea of Masons building alchemical information into the Church…

The famous alchemist Fulcanelli has made this the subject of one of his books.

Here’s the 1926 manuscript of his book. http://www.amazon.com/Fulcanelli-Alchemist-Cathedrales-Esoteric-Intrepretation/dp/0914732145

unoriginal assertion.

Frater Apotheosis said

They WERE civilized, I believe you mean to say, the Catholic Church destroyed their history, their culture, their spirituality, intentionally destroyed their advanced knowledge of math and turned them into Barbarians intentionally, to keep them as slaves incarnating here forever.

Poet said

No, I don’t mean to say. They kept themselves as barbarians and had already rotted their ‘civilisation’ from the inside out by the time the Spanish came and the other Mesoamerican tribes gladly helped the small bands of Europeans to wage war on a despised bunch of cannibalistic thugs. They, along with the Aztecs, were a pox upon the earth and deserved to be wiped out.

They were desperate people trying to force a return of the gods and rain which is what were trying to regain. Desperate people do desperate things, like start sacrificing everyone until society looses cohesion and runs back to the jungle to survive, especially when no rain ever comes.

And what more powerful way to force a return of your god than offering them the lives and blood of an entire city of people. It sounds like good occult theory, but do you think any higher evolved form of life would witness that and be like yeah, we’re gonna come back and give you that.

A supernatural entity would have returned to that kind of blood sacrifice…But…

Perhaps these entities weren’t even Super Natural?

Maybe they were just Natural, but had some really good technology that these supposed “barbarian savages” as you would put it, perhaps mistook it for godlike power and or magick, since these people already prayed to the moon, sun, stars, fire, water, the earth, their dead ancestors among other things.

It’s not a crazy premise, that if you have advanced technology you can make it look like magick and dedicate a religious cult to it.

Take a look at many of the peoples in the South Pacific, specifically areas like PaPau New Gineau where the Cargo Cults sometimes do more than building monuments to the gods like mock airplanes out of wood, and some engage in acts of Cannibalism because they expect the gods [US AIRFORCE] to accidentally drop them “cargo” from the sky if they do such things like they once happened during the Second World War…

Not so Far Fetched is it?

Poet said

…But then your ressentiment for European culture and civilisation and hardon for the barbarisms of the noble savage is evident enough. You’ve just stacked the deck to get the ‘intellectual’ result you already want.

First off someone who uses the words “ressentiment” and “civilisation” in the same sentence should really learn when to correct people on their grammar, especially if it shortly proceeds a lecture on grammar…You just shot yourself in the foot there.

I actually am defending the correct historical record from what I perceive to be ignorant people like you who assert that apparently for 1200 years the church gave out puppies and candy and told nobody to read, and everyone peacefully agreed and the Catholic Church NEVER burned anyone alive for doing science, writing prayers in their own language, providing religious freedom and tolerance without public torture techniques like “Anal Pearing”, the rack, and slowly being cooked to death over an open flame in public for the express purpose of your property and money to be taken for the Fake Church.

Let’s just pretend certain things didn’t happen, like THE BRUTAL PUBLIC EXECUTION OF THE GREATEST MATHEMATICAL AND PHILOSOPHICAL MIND OF THE TIME! Certain individuals like Hypatia met a very gruesome end, where her house was stormed, and she was hacked limb from limb with broken tiles, or broken oyster shells depending on how you’d like to read the translation, because she was incredibly smart and the Bishop Cyril was jealous of her. Events like this ended intellectualism in Alexandria.

1.) I'd like to know how Mayans were so accurate with their astrology they understood the concept of procession of the equinoxes, as if a human with that level of technology would notice the change of alignment of a star moving 1 degree in the sky over 72 years when in many European countries you were lucky to make it past 30 years old..

Procession? I think you mean precession: how about getting the word right before you decide to write little essays on the subject.

Actually spell check got that one wrong, sorry. How about you choose not to pick one word to be a grammar nazi and derail an entire argument over something with substance. Just for posterity, I corrected a few* of your errors

…But do continue

So you claim, without even a citation. But since you appear so fond of citing Wikipedia:

There has been speculation that the Mesoamerican Long Count calendar is somehow calibrated against the precession, but this view is not held by professional scholars of Mayan civilization. Milbrath states, however, that "a long cycle 30,000 years involving the Pleiades … may have been an effort to calculate the precession of the equinox.

Yes, I will simply claim that what you are saying is an outright made-up falsehood.


Actually they accounted for it in the entire long count, they had a unique method for doing this, proving my point and the fact you clearly didn’t understand what I read…

FOR EXAMPLE, I WILL GO BACK TO THE SAME ARTICLE YOU QUOTED TO PROVE THIS.

The most important part was that he described the gradual nature of the procession being more or less as I describe, and said that as it proceeded through the zodiac, it could take no more than 36,000 years, none of which contradicted anything I said.

But once again, continue.

What you are trying to prove by your reference to European life-expectancy is anyone's guess, but Maya life expectancy was about the same

Few studies have separated mortality rates by gender, but a life expectancy of twenty-five to thrity-five years seems common in archaeological populations of the Maya area (Chase 1997; Cohen et al. 1997)

Ancient Maya Women
edited by Traci Ardren

First, the life expectancy of the Maya was low, with few living past the age of 40.

Last Rites for the Tipu Maya: Genetic Structuring in a Colonial Cemetery
By Keith P. Jacobi

Moreover, what you say isn’t strictly true. These are life expectancies at birth, which are only so low due to very high infant mortality rates. Life expectancy at adulthood in Europe was in the mid-sixties i.e. within a decade of what it is today.


"600 AD, Mayans had an average life expectancy of 63 years, while in France, it was 27. "

This quote can be found in numerous places, and is correct in asserting this for Mexican Mayans, the ones whom built these megalithic ruins.

Perhaps since you have provided quite a bit more documentation on this claim than any others, I will concede this point to you for whatever it’s worth.

This detail was written into their calendar as if it was absolutely fucking obvious to everyone. This wasn't known to us in the West centuries ago. The only way someone can attain it is with mathematical calculation, but the question is, how are they getting accurate numbers for these calculations?

That is absolutely false. The pehenomenon of axial precession has been known in the West since the Hellenistic age at least.

I think you mean “phenomenon”

Yeah that’s right, because how many of those Hellenistic texts on astronomy/astrology, mysticism, and alchemy managed to survive?

Oh wait, didn’t the burn all those, or try really hard for a few centuries?

IN THE SAME ARTICLE YOU QUOTE, IT SAYS THAT NO TEXTS OF THE HIPPARCHUS ACTUALLY SURVIVE. INCLUDING HIS WORKS ON PRECESSION. SO, NO, NOT REALLY, THEY KNEW ABOUT IT, AND THEN THEY FORGOT!!! Scholars think they know what happened BASED ON WHAT SOME OTHER GUY SAID!

Virtually all of the writings of Hipparchus are lost, including his work on precession. They are mentioned by Ptolemy, who explains precession as the rotation of the celestial sphere around a motionless Earth. It is reasonable to presume that Hipparchus, similarly to Ptolemy, thought of precession in geocentric terms as a motion of the heavens, rather than of the Earth." -Wikipedia (same article)

If you seriously think the Church allowed any mathematical manuscripts survive, you’re dead fucking wrong.

Exhibit A.) If this mathematical text was actually looked at, it’s possible we could have been traveling space more than 1,000 years ago. The only surviving copy was scraped clean and turned into a prayer book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archimedes_Palimpsest

Exhibit B)
Da’Vinci. Bill gates purchased the 18 pages of Leonardo’s Codex Leicester for 30.8 million where Da’Vinci drops bombshell of history “The sun does not move,” in all capitals over a century before Galileo went on trial, complete with illustrations of heavenly bodies. This knowledge could not have been used to harm people, so it’s presumable Leonardo would have shared it if the Church wouldn’t have cooked him alive for it.


That makes this 2 page preview alone worth 3.42 million dollars.

Exhibit C: Hypatia’s gruesome public execution by an angry mob of Christians.

As you look at that, try to think about the kind of ideas that the church violently suppressed that we are still unaware of, or that we were merely delayed for centuries to acquire.

But continue…

So that means they were more advanced than us...Modern people.

Non sequitur, even assuming the truth of your premises.


Au Contraire, according to you, I’m supposedly the one who can’t keep my thoughts or premise straight, I really call that claim into question here.

"They [Mayans], along with the Aztecs, were a pox upon the earth and deserved to be wiped out."

I’m saying they have incredible knowledge of mathematics, and the precision stonework of a culture that eludes us, yet pretty much relegated metal working technology exclusively to Jewelry or medical devices like skull caps, after these so called “savages and barbarians” were performing brain surgery and dentistry quite successfully 2000 years ago, gold was also good, but more of a display of extreme wealth and status, they had somehow discovered silver had an anti-microbial/anti-bacterial property, that was the best advancement in anti-bacterial technology until they DISCOVERED PENECILLIN (a natural fungus) in 1928.

Just because we don’t understand their foundations of the knowledge, doesn’t mean they didn’t possess it.

Idk if you’re a racist person, but what you just said sounds pretty racist, so I’m just going to assume you’e a racist for calling these people barbarians and diseases on the planet, do you have any other ethnic minorities you’d like to wipe out while you’re at it Little Hitler? Jews and Gypsies next right, well my family lived in Nazi Germany, as foreigners during the war, through that I see no problem calling it out when I see it. This is the inevitable line of thinking by relegating others to subhuman, the next and only logical conclusion is that you have to exterminate them for some “Lebensraum”, you want rights, in such a system your only right is RIGHT THIS WAY, INTO THE OVEN!!!

…But continue… I believe you were saying…

Oh dear, oh dear. The typical blathering of a layman who has never studied mathematics beyond school level. Yes, yes, more advanced than us, with our real analysis, differential geometry, vector calculus and group theory.

Thanks for setting me straight by displaying all of that wonderful information…

Sources you can check for most of this information 1. Keeper of Genesis 2. Master Game 3. Fingerprints of the Gods 4. Wikipedia and Google 5. Life and personal travel to these ruins and cities like I have.

I.e. works rejected by virtually every historian, personal anecdote, and … WIKIPEDIA!

Congratulations!

You know, it’s funny you say that about those books, because they are some of the most well researched claims I have ever seen, that are incredibly thorough with the number of accepted and conventional scholars they quote, one in that list for example was a book that took 19 years to write for two exceptional authors who are qualified to write such a book. These aren’t pieces where you can pump such volumes out faster than octo-mom pumps out babies. These are serious, long, and in depth books that provide a host of citations from well picked and researched sources.


JMHO I suppose

Ever Forward,
-Frater Apotheosis