Time for a real discussion

Spirits, Evocation & Possession
#22

Okay, first off, if you take the Bible as historical fact you are going to have a bad time. Actual history and archeology dismantles that. Also Judas was not possessed. His betrayal was done of his own free will.

Secondly the Keys of Solomon are not taken from the bible. In fact it’s more in line with the stories in the Quran than the Torah. And the keys didn’t even show up until around 1000AD, and thats a generous estimate.

Third, the spirits in the Goetia are mostly demonized versions of the older pagan deities of the area, like most “demons” we know by name.

Fourth, even if they are aspects of the human mind doesn’t make them any less potent. For this particular paradigm you might want to look into Jungian Psychology.

8 Likes
#23

He is saying people are bandwagoning without searching if thats the real spirit or not.

1 Like
#24

Precisely, sir! The Bible has been rewritten to fit the context of a particular time! So, it’s not exactly reliable :slight_smile:

Moreover, it’s a bunch of fear driven hogwash :slight_smile:

4 Likes
#25

Why does the lesser key of solomon work then?

#26

This is sort of incorrect, in my opinion :slight_smile: successful mental manipulation magick is a fine case of this. However, if a person actually tried, they could probably overcome it.

2 Likes
#27

Yes, “demonized” gods… The principle is always that of calling on a divinity (YHVH, but theoretically others as well) which is ultimately the one of the operator.

#28

The thing no one seems to understand is that you have to read accounts like the bible as you would UPG, because at the end of the day all magic comes down to utilizing UPG found either by yourself or someone else a really long time ago.

I don’t want to get into it here so I’ll just refer to @Qayos for those of you who need help understanding UPG.

As for possession and control in general, people can do things they’d never previously do with the influence of spirits.

It’s not like a humans are a strict set of codes of behaviors and guidelines that never get broken, or stone sculptures that never change.

People generally have the potential to do anything within them, if you’re looking for them to do a certain thing, then one way would be to alter them energetically until their built in emotional and mental responses are conducive to it.

This can be accomplished by associating them with a certain current of energies that would cause alchemical changes, or more directly by binding and shaping them to your will.

What happens during the type of possession you’re looking for tend to be a mixture of the two, as well as perception control if the spirit is strong enough.

3 Likes
#29

You are correct. There are many rituals to control someone. The most common curse with magic to control someone’s mind is a confusion hex, when you start hearing voices you know your in trouble.

The voices will try and influence the target to cause harm and destroy there life and any happiness. They can also effect the targets subconscious and take control of the active mind to make mistakes, anger flashes and past memories are an influence to cause harm to others even thoughts of murder.

Full possession is rare and usually occurs over a series of years with a death hex where a demon completely takes over the targets mind and destroys there life.

Many mind control hexes with constant voices and blasting noise are created not only for revenge but to achieve a goal to force the target to honor an agreement. Many who have been cheated want to regain what they have lost and have turned to magic to effect a remedy and justice.

Exorcisms are not effective with full possession, however they have shown some success with lesser castings of demonic torment.

This type of black magic requires a lot of experience to control a target using either chaos magic or a patron deity who will accede with ceremonial magic, usually with a pact made. Others may digress this is from my personal experience and perspective.

The Bible and Judas? The Bible is myth and legend combined with parable to influence people. Judas was not possessed but an impoverished individual that was jealous and enriched himself by eliminating a rival rabbi who he secretly hated.

2 Likes
#30

No more like people go the “I experienced it so it’s true” while I’m a believer of confirmations and SPG over pure SPG.

1 Like
#31

The ones by the catholic church usually don’t, to my knowledge. They rely on a name and faith in another being that the lesser entity doesn’t care about. What they can do is give the possessed the belief to push out the entity.

I recommend Josephine Mccarthy’s ‘The Exorcists Handbook’ for another view and some really good info that will clarify some of what’s happening there.

3 Likes
#32

In my opinion there is some truth in the bible. Those that wrote it did rip off many other belief systems. There is bound to be some truth in there somewhere.

#33

Very curious.

1 Like
#34

This entire post is covertly shilling for “only the Christian god is real, all other beings are evil and sinister.”

As with almost every thread that debates this stuff in the abstract rather than from firsthand experience, it’s drawing a lot of annoyance and arguments based on personal experience, which differ from the Biblical dogma.

I am closing this thread since the core premise is one of preaching the final authority of the Bible over every other religion and that all magicians who believe they are working with other beings, of various kinds of depth and complexity, are actually merely working with Biblical bad guys.

And you might want to check reality before claiming sigils come from the Bible, this isn’t a YouTube comments section where a passing comment slides into people’s brains and lodges as a fact, many members here actually know what they’re talking about.

16 Likes
#35