Thoughts on promises by spirits


#1

Hey BALG,

I was just talking with one of the members and I noticed something. The two of us have had promises made by spirits and yet sometimes it seems that we have to conjure the spirit up to force it to keep its promise.

Belial made a lot of promises in our initial meetings and it wasn’t until I made him keep those promises that they actually came to fruition. It just got me thinking that maybe this is the way some of the spirits we work with force us to grow. What better way to grow than face your demon and demand that it keep its promise?

Well it is either this or they are assholes.

Stay frosty,
Orismen


#2

I’ve noticed this as well… I have had a spirit I’ve been working with extensively give me bullshit information for the sole purpose of me figuring the shit out myself. I’ll post more on this later.


#3

Unless you have a spirit really speaking to you in an audible voice like a real person standing across from you, you have no business speaking of promises or information. Mental masturbation doesn’t count.


#4

Seems I can summon Poete just by mentioning anything Goetia related, good to know.

It seems that the spirits may be more like us than I had earlier guessed. I think back to all the times I have made a promise and had to be reminded or forced to keep it. I know there are those who view demons have have no free will, I think they may have some…oh well more experimentation.


#5

[quote=“Orismen, post:4, topic:2362”]Seems I can summon Poete just by mentioning anything Goetia related, good to know.

It seems that the spirits may be more like us than I had earlier guessed. I think back to all the times I have made a promise and had to be reminded or forced to keep it. I know there are those who view demons have have no free will, I think they may have some…oh well more experimentation.[/quote]

I guess it depends on how you view demons. If you view them as fallen angels then they had to choose to rebel which goes along with the theory of free will. If you choose to view them as ancient gods then they would of course have free will as a god does as they wish. If you view them as energy or forces of the universe they would be the seperating or destructive force so it would be logical to think they would rebel from the order imposed by a promise. I figure this is where divine authority came I to play in the grimoires, all knees bend to the name of God or that was the logic used in the western systems.

They could be like us and just like to get shit for free or see what they can get away with.


#6

Then, according to this view, angels have free will as well. Only they didn’t choose to rebel.


#7

Then, according to this view, angels have free will as well. Only they didn’t choose to rebel.[/quote]

That’s the logical assumption.


#8

Well, some spirits like Paimon will always go the extra mile and supply their own energy. Paimon will pretty much always give you a huge return on your investment really quickly, and he prides and promotes himself on that guarantee. He also tries different variables until he finds the one that looks best.

Most spirits won’t provide that much service up front. First of ,all it has to do with the basics of “How it works” - the intentional call/response of sending out energy and getting it back in a converted form. Secondly, you’re dealing with spirits that are not just workers but part of an initiatory system, so your interactions with them are going to be a tacit education on how magic, evocation, etc, work. Command and permission are a big deal. You (usually) have to command them to supply their own energy, use their own judgment, pull out all the stops, etc. That’s ceding a portion of your authority to them.

If you call them up and complain (be careful) they WILL supply their own energy (and how). In fact, simply muttering about how “Maybe so-and-so just wasn’t the right guy for the job, I guess I’ll go ask a different spirit…” can be enough to trigger an “Oh, yeah?!” response. The limitation is probably either on your end or an intelligent display of concern for what you can handle.

And anytime a spirit tells you they “will” do something, but you didn’t command them to do it, the unspoken qualifier is “if you command me to.” Respect for permission, command, etc, is what really distinguishes Goetics - they never lose sight of that initiatory orientation.


#9

[quote=“Sultitan_Itan, post:8, topic:2362”]Well, some spirits like Paimon will always go the extra mile and supply their own energy. Paimon will pretty much always give you a huge return on your investment really quickly, and he prides and promotes himself on that guarantee. He also tries different variables until he finds the one that looks best.

Most spirits won’t provide that much service up front. First of ,all it has to do with the basics of “How it works” - the intentional call/response of sending out energy and getting it back in a converted form. Secondly, you’re dealing with spirits that are not just workers but part of an initiatory system, so your interactions with them are going to be a tacit education on how magic, evocation, etc, work. Command and permission are a big deal. You (usually) have to command them to supply their own energy, use their own judgment, pull out all the stops, etc. That’s ceding a portion of your authority to them.

If you call them up and complain (be careful) they WILL supply their own energy (and how). In fact, simply muttering about how “Maybe so-and-so just wasn’t the right guy for the job, I guess I’ll go ask a different spirit…” can be enough to trigger an “Oh, yeah?!” response. The limitation is probably either on your end or an intelligent display of concern for what you can handle.

And anytime a spirit tells you they “will” do something, but you didn’t command them to do it, the unspoken qualifier is “if you command me to.” Respect for permission, command, etc, is what really distinguishes Goetics - they never lose sight of that initiatory orientation.[/quote]

Great post! Thank you.


#10

Come to think of it, I dont think Ive ever been “promised” anything by any spirit. Most of them have said the same thing, along the lines of “whatever comes about is the result of what you have put into this interaction, Im just the middleman!”


#11

What Koetting book can Paimon be found in?


#12

There is a pathworking that includes King Paimon in Works of Darkness.