The strength of “western” civilisation has always been a willingess to adopt, explore, create or bring in new ideas - eras when that was stopped, talented people went underground with their explorations, the fruits of which were often lost, and things stagnated for a while for most of the rest of the population.
To deplore the creation of new ways of looking at magic as being “self-hating” is like standing in Florence during the flourishing of the Renaissance and ranting about how kids today don’t have enough respect for the old ways - short-sighted, and equally inaccurate.
Change or die - or, go live in one of the few lovely pockets of the world where rejecting outside influences, change, and critical thought is flourishing - parts of Afghanistan, perhaps.
And if you compare the situation we’re in right now to, say, 1952, 1820, or 1392, you’d crap yourselves with glee that there are populist books on magick to be had one click away online, and that you are even literate (I’m assuming no-one here’s been born into the royal family, or aristocracy), let alone have the freedom to read what you want without persecution, and the spare income to buy it in the first place.
Everyone’s searching for meaning - that not everyone commits as much to magick as we do doesn’t mean the info’s wasted on them, humans naturally explore, take things up, test them out, then move on - anyone here who’s tried a new tool or path then rejected it probably sees it as part of the learning process, and not a waste at all.
People might dip into magick wanting to feel special and powerful, but if the mass of people wanted to feel unspecial and powerless, that would worry me a whole lot more - that way lies the kind of mindset that props up totalitarian regimes, in which people are happy to be drones under a leader or ideal, and those kinds of things … well, they don’t usually end so well, nor do they support the right of people like us, from the backgrounds we have, to explore the kinds of things we’re into.
And finally saying the book The Secret is “wishcraft” is a bit inaccurate - the principles in it WORK, but, they work best when backed up with a solid understanding of the cosmic laws explained in The Kybalion, which is what underlies the whole LoA thing.
In that respect it’s no different to NAP, it’s tried to give people the basics of a complex system in a way that doesn’t require them to spend years studying, with predictably patchy results (especially for people who come to it wanting to prove it wrong because “it can’t be that simple”), but it opened a lot of doors for people who read it deeply enough to understand it’s not about “If I wish for something, it should just pop out of thin air,” and it’s both a complete system in itself, albeit a limited one, and also a stepping stone to learning more.
I feel the need to weigh in here. First of all for those who claim that the phrase, “Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted” is contradictory. I submit this, contradiction does not exist to a true Chaos Magician. You have missed to point of the statement. The point of the statement is that we, not the cosmos, not some higher power, not the path that we choose, etc define our destiny. When one says that something is a contradiction to a Chaos Magician they only serve to prove their naivety and lack of conceptual understanding. Chaos Magick is a mindset first, practice second. You must develop an understanding of the underlying concept of Chaos before you can truly practice the Magick. To quote an old cliche, knowledge is power. If you choose to disregard anything because it doesn’t offer the negative consequences you are used to, you are not ready to transcend your human existence and accept your Godhood. These things I submit to all those who would question the power of creation and manifestation. To question Chaos is to question these powers and the concept of your Godhood. Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted.
A statement that renders itself meaningless by self-contradiction. You can’t have your cake and eat it. Every sentence you write is replete with implications of objective and absolute TRUTH.
My thoughts on Chaos Magic? It’s just another anti-traditional fad of Westerners who hate their own culture, and it compares in value to traditional grimoiric magic as a piece of postmodern shit smeared across a gallery wall compares with the works of Michelangelo. In other words, I doubt ‘Chaos Magicians’ can conjure a puff of smoke from a piece of charcoal. Been there, done that, deluded myself with mental masturbation etc.[/quote]
To say that one’s path is wrong because you do not understand it is childish at best. Just because you choose to believe certain things does not give you the right to insult another’s life path or practice. I have practiced Chaos Magick for my entire life and I can tell you from first hand experience, it is incredibly powerful when you seek understanding of it. As I have said before, Chaos Magick is a mindset first, practice second. The concepts of Practicorum Chaoticum were not able to penetrate your iron clad subjective reality and therefore Chaos Magick did not work for you. Before you insult one’s path in the future please understand the concepts of their path not some watered down, misinformed, malnourished, misrepresentation of karmic non transcendentalism. To do so goes against the very nature of who and what we all are as Practitioners of the Art of Magick. Michelangelo at his finest. Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted.
You’ve summed up the essential difference: there are those who believe that they are already gods – or perhaps even “God;” and then we who believe that gods run things and dictate destiny to the point where choice and freedom are restricted.
However – in this latter paradigm there is a way to cut the cords of destiny; but only at the cost of great suffering and sacrifice.
It certainly is not as easy as opening a sigil and declaring oneself free.
@Student of Goetia. You are absolutely correct. It takes a massive amount of work to reach thelevel of ttranscendence necessary to accept one’s Godhood. The different pathways lead use to similar destinations but certain paths are better for different people for different reasons. That is why those who follow a karmic path or a dualistic path often can’t accept a path that is nondualistic in nature. It is also why Chaos Magick doesn’t work for everyone. Thank you for that great insight.
One does not just become free. You must declare your freedom and accept your ability to make it happen. The best proof of this in relatively recent times is the United States of America declaring their freedom. It was a lot of work and sacrifice but in the end they won their freedom. The same thing is true for those who wish to transcend their human existence. We must fight the old paradigms and open ourselves to our greater potential.
Yes it is. And you just contradicted your claim that ‘all is subjective’ by your claim that ‘everything you experience happens throught the Godself’ - although the first claim implies its own truth and actually contradicts itself if the subjective is taken to be ‘untrue’.
Today's truth is tomorrow's shed shell under that logic.
Please try that epistemological relativist nonsense on someone with a stunted intellect and a third-grade understanding of philosophy.[/quote]
Yeah, magick and quantum physics are black and white subjects with neat yes or no answers, instead of, the answer is all possibilities until you look, and the electron appears based on the capabilities of your nervous system, brain, and mind and what they are capable of telling you about THEIR OBSERVATION OF THE UNIVERSE.
“All perception is a gamble.” — Edmund Husserl
The following is an excerpt from a famous black magician and quantum physicist who long proceeded many of the great minds in either field, taken before he passed away in 2007 in an interview, perhaps it will illustrate the point others are pointing at.
KBOO-FM Interview with
Robert Anton Wilson
by Cliff Walker
The 1990 (or so) interview with Robert Anton Wilson on KBOO FM, Portland, Oregon
Here is a quote taken near the beginning, I’m sure you can google the rest with the info I’ve given you, copy pasta some of it into google if you want to find the rest.
The quoted portion of the interview is as follows:
"Walker: How is semantics influential in how we see and how we act?
Wilson: We can only think certain thoughts because of the kind of language we use. If we get a thought that doesn’t fit into language we’re apt to think we’re having a mystical experience – unless we know where we got the drugs – but otherwise, we’re inclined to think it’s a mystical experience if it doesn’t fit into language. Therefore, language delimits us.
Walker: Give me some examples.
Wilson: Well, in our language, er, there’s a natural tendency built into the Indo-European family of languages to divide things into “either-ors,” probably because we have two hands. Nobody realizes the influence on human philosophy – up in the highest levels – of the fact that 50,000 years ago children started playing the game of grabbing a rock, putting their hands behind their back, and then holding their hands out and saying, “Guess which hand I’ve got the rock in?” There’s only two possible choices, there. It’s gotta be in the right hand or the left hand. We’ve been so conditioned by that in the last 50,000 years that we think everything has a right and a left, or a true and a false. It’s a terrible shock to us discover something which the Orient discovered 2,500 years ago, or more, which modern science has just discovered in this century; namely, that most of the universe consists of maybes. There are very few things that we can hammer down into definite yeses or nos.
You can reduce everything to yeses or nos if you’re sitting in an armchair discussing abstract philosophy, but when you’re dealing with the real world, it’s very hard to force things into the yeses and the nos. The people who are very good at forcing them into yeses and nos are totalitarian governments, and they do it be shooting everybody who sees the maybes, or finding some other ways to shut them up: locking them up for life or something like that.
You’ll find most religions that are based on the yes-no thing have a distinct tendency to go to war whenever they get the opportunity. Jonathan Swift said, “We’ve got enough religion to hate each other but not enough to love each other.” The history of Christianity has been the history of continuous warfare over yeses and nos by people who can’t conceive that the universe contains mostly maybes."
On a personal note…
I don’t think there is anything I could really say that hasn’t been researched out and actually really demonstrated quite thoroughly on this subject a long time ago, whether or not people are conditioned to accept this via society.
Personally I find it hard to defend a Newtonian world view, and Aristotalian logic when these are viewpoints are counter to everything that magick is, and the suppositions based on how it works. You can’t have materialist reductionist magick, that’s called science, and I mean science in the form of a dogmatic world view and religion that can objectively decipher the universe…Nobody is offering that here, that’s why Everything is permitted.
Yes it is. And you just contradicted your claim that ‘all is subjective’ by your claim that ‘everything you experience happens throught the Godself’ - although the first claim implies its own truth and actually contradicts itself if the subjective is taken to be ‘untrue’.
Today's truth is tomorrow's shed shell under that logic.
Please try that epistemological relativist nonsense on someone with a stunted intellect and a third-grade understanding of philosophy.[/quote]
Yeah, magick and quantum physics are black and white subjects with neat yes or no answers, instead of, the answer is all possibilities until you look, and the electron appears based on the capabilities of your nervous system, brain, and mind and what they are capable of telling you about THEIR OBSERVATION OF THE UNIVERSE.
“All perception is a gamble.” — Edmund Husserl
The following is an excerpt from a famous black magician and quantum physicist who long proceeded many of the great minds in either field, taken before he passed away in 2007 in an interview, perhaps it will illustrate the point others are pointing at.
KBOO-FM Interview with
Robert Anton Wilson
by Cliff Walker
The 1990 (or so) interview with Robert Anton Wilson on KBOO FM, Portland, Oregon
Here is a quote taken near the beginning, I’m sure you can google the rest with the info I’ve given you, copy pasta some of it into google if you want to find the rest.
The quoted portion of the interview is as follows:
"Walker: How is semantics influential in how we see and how we act?
Wilson: We can only think certain thoughts because of the kind of language we use. If we get a thought that doesn’t fit into language we’re apt to think we’re having a mystical experience – unless we know where we got the drugs – but otherwise, we’re inclined to think it’s a mystical experience if it doesn’t fit into language. Therefore, language delimits us.
Walker: Give me some examples.
Wilson: Well, in our language, er, there’s a natural tendency built into the Indo-European family of languages to divide things into “either-ors,” probably because we have two hands. Nobody realizes the influence on human philosophy – up in the highest levels – of the fact that 50,000 years ago children started playing the game of grabbing a rock, putting their hands behind their back, and then holding their hands out and saying, “Guess which hand I’ve got the rock in?” There’s only two possible choices, there. It’s gotta be in the right hand or the left hand. We’ve been so conditioned by that in the last 50,000 years that we think everything has a right and a left, or a true and a false. It’s a terrible shock to us discover something which the Orient discovered 2,500 years ago, or more, which modern science has just discovered in this century; namely, that most of the universe consists of maybes. There are very few things that we can hammer down into definite yeses or nos.
You can reduce everything to yeses or nos if you’re sitting in an armchair discussing abstract philosophy, but when you’re dealing with the real world, it’s very hard to force things into the yeses and the nos. The people who are very good at forcing them into yeses and nos are totalitarian governments, and they do it be shooting everybody who sees the maybes, or finding some other ways to shut them up: locking them up for life or something like that.
You’ll find most religions that are based on the yes-no thing have a distinct tendency to go to war whenever they get the opportunity. Jonathan Swift said, “We’ve got enough religion to hate each other but not enough to love each other.” The history of Christianity has been the history of continuous warfare over yeses and nos by people who can’t conceive that the universe contains mostly maybes."
On a personal note…
I don’t think there is anything I could really say that hasn’t been researched out and actually really demonstrated quite thoroughly on this subject a long time ago, whether or not people are conditioned to accept this via society.
Personally I find it hard to defend a Newtonian world view, and Aristotalian logic when these are viewpoints are counter to everything that magick is, and the suppositions based on how it works. You can’t have materialist reductionist magick, that’s called science, and I mean science in the form of a dogmatic world view and religion that can objectively decipher the universe…Nobody is offering that here, that’s why Everything is permitted.
BALG ≠ Science Fair.
Best of Luck,
-Frater Apotheosis[/quote]
You’ve reminded me I must re-read the Tao-Te-Ching
“So it is that existence and non-existence give birth the one to
(the idea of) the other; that difficulty and ease produce the one (the
idea of) the other; that length and shortness fashion out the one the
figure of the other; that (the ideas of) height and lowness arise from
the contrast of the one with the other; that the musical notes and
tones become harmonious through the relation of one with another; and
that being before and behind give the idea of one following another.”
Eastern Mysticism is where it’s at, going hand-in-hand with the base principals of Hermetics. All scales are slidable, everything is part of a whole, simply varying in scale & degree. Everything is one, yet with distinct parts. Every principal can be rectified within another principal, understanding the constant nature of the rectification of duality.
Therefore, paradox can exist, and a seemingly misbegotten notion such as ‘Nothing is everything’ is perfectly reasonable.
The Tao was the first Eastern Mysticism I ever got into. It goes hand in hand with the Quaballa, which of course has it’s adverse side.
I’ve been reading Eliphas Levi lately, who does a nice job at vindicating the Western ‘Universal Faith’ (Basically Catholicism & Masonry) within the philosophy of the two Gods: One for the profane, one for the Wise. Thus, those schoolchildren must be taught the doctrine of the all-powerful Rod & Lightning God who crushes dissenters, whilst the grownups know the God of nature is simply the principals of nature, who in his purest form is absolute love & evolution.
God = The Principal laws of nature.
The Constant Inconsistency, Cause & Effect.
As for Newton…he didn’t invent ‘Law’, he disclosed principals, which as quantum physics & Einstein proved via special relativity, dark matter, etc, are inconsistent when the base formula is applied to high speeds & heavy gravitational fields.
Again… the constant inconsistency. Understand this principal, and you will understand why magic works.
I don’t know if this is compatible with the current ‘Chaos magic’ theory or not, but if it’s compatible with Eastern Mysticism, sure then why not I can dig it…
Well said Gnosis. I had forgotten about the Tao-Te Ching. Very good read for anyone. It was one of the first books that I read along with the I-Ching, Quantum Psychology, Prometheus Rising, and the Book of Results.
i started out as a chaote and still consider myself to be largely in chaos magick but i’ll be the first to admit that most of what is called chaos magick is horseshit.
Depends on what qualifies as chaos magick to you. I agree that a lot of the stuff out there is crap. At least when you start moving into the Discordian stuff. True Chaos Magick though is quite powerful and useful in my experience. Especially the creation of servitores. You have to remember that what you believe is what will be manifest in your works. Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted.
[quote=“Lady Eva, post:21, topic:3669”]The strength of “western” civilisation has always been a willingess to adopt, explore, create or bring in new ideas - eras when that was stopped, talented people went underground with their explorations, the fruits of which were often lost, and things stagnated for a while for most of the rest of the population.
To deplore the creation of new ways of looking at magic as being “self-hating” is like standing in Florence during the flourishing of the Renaissance and ranting about how kids today don’t have enough respect for the old ways - short-sighted, and equally inaccurate.
Change or die - or, go live in one of the few lovely pockets of the world where rejecting outside influences, change, and critical thought is flourishing - parts of Afghanistan, perhaps.
And if you compare the situation we’re in right now to, say, 1952, 1820, or 1392, you’d crap yourselves with glee that there are populist books on magick to be had one click away online, and that you are even literate (I’m assuming no-one here’s been born into the royal family, or aristocracy), let alone have the freedom to read what you want without persecution, and the spare income to buy it in the first place.
Everyone’s searching for meaning - that not everyone commits as much to magick as we do doesn’t mean the info’s wasted on them, humans naturally explore, take things up, test them out, then move on - anyone here who’s tried a new tool or path then rejected it probably sees it as part of the learning process, and not a waste at all.[/quote]
To all this I agree, everything old was at one time or another something new. It had to be created and adapted and made to work. That’s something that get’s lost on traditionalist sometimes IMO. They get wrapped up in the age of a book or system as if that somehow validates it or makes is authentic…sorry no. Just because a guy wrote a book a few centuries ago makes it no more powerful or legitimate than the Bible and we see how well the arguments defending that have went.
People might dip into magick wanting to feel special and powerful, but if the mass of people wanted to feel unspecial and powerless, that would worry me a whole lot more - that way lies the kind of mindset that props up totalitarian regimes, in which people are happy to be drones under a leader or ideal, and those kinds of things ... well, they don't usually end so well, nor do they support the right of people like us, from the backgrounds we have, to explore the kinds of things we're into.
See the problem isn’t people wanting to feel powerful it’s more about people wanting to belong to something. People will find something and cling to it and it quickly becomes a bandwagon. When that happens it often gets reduced for the lowest common denominator so that EVERYONE can get in on it. Usually by this time people are also trying to find anyway they can to make a quick buck from it, hence the quite painful “New Age/Occult” section at the local book stores and Gurus teaching the “Real Truth about blah blah blah”. More and more watered down information gets thrown out there as if it were an authority, it makes seperating the wheat from the chaff all the harder.
This is a lot more common in Chaos Magick as it’s easier to blur lines, you can throw some psuedo-scientific jargon mixed in with some basic occult fundamentals and you’ve got yourself a Chaos magick book. You free yourself from the need to cite references and historical background as it’s chaos and “all in your head”.
And finally saying the book The Secret is "wishcraft" is a bit inaccurate - the principles in it WORK, but, they work best when backed up with a solid understanding of the cosmic laws explained in The Kybalion, which is what underlies the whole LoA thing.
In that respect it’s no different to NAP, it’s tried to give people the basics of a complex system in a way that doesn’t require them to spend years studying, with predictably patchy results (especially for people who come to it wanting to prove it wrong because “it can’t be that simple”), but it opened a lot of doors for people who read it deeply enough to understand it’s not about “If I wish for something, it should just pop out of thin air,” and it’s both a complete system in itself, albeit a limited one, and also a stepping stone to learning more.
I’ve not worked with NAP but so I can’t comment on it too much.
I happened upon “The Secret” movie on Netflix one day (didn’t realize it was about the book). Within 15 minutes of the 30 minutes I watched I knew that the methods were solid but the softpitch delivery would make the wishful thinking crowd cream themselves. Later I grazed the book while at a book store and saw my suspicions confirmed.
Anyone versed in the occult uses LOA all the time if they realize it or not, with The Secret you can see the occult framework with a highly polished bs skin pulled over it to make it palpable to the masses, notice you do not hear that these are principles of magick, thats to keep it nice and palatable to the uninformed, not to mention making the market more secure, it’s harder to sell books when people know the information is already available in another book let alone several.The very fact that it was made palatable by removing information and being displayed in a limited capacity limited the potential it could be utilized. This causes people to have a limited understanding hence why it gets all the hate it does from those who see it for what it really is.
i stick with the basics as outlined in liber null and the book of results. frater marabas also had some good general principles that i trust, and i believe robert anton wilson’s book prometheus rising is a great chaos magick grammar. it is the first magick book i ever read and tried out. well, actually the second. the first was autogenic training. but i didn’t know at the time that at was magical training - i figured that out years later.
the discordian stuff is more magick satire than magick proper. they replace crowley and blavatsky with harpo marx and frank zappa. which i guess is legit if you just want to sit around and laugh at everything like a cynic or believe in everything like an optimistic new ager. but cynicism is fucking EASY and so is blind faith. magick is hard.
chaos magick has an interesting overlap with esoteric hypnotism. i’m surprised that this late in the game the link is still not obvious. gnosis is just trance under a different name - liber mmm is basically learning standard hypnotism or nlp, which was brand new at the time chaos magick was being invented. i do belief if pete carroll and ray sherwin had met richard bandler and john grinder in the 70s chaos magick would have had a firmer foundation in mind science than it ended up having. but i digress. multiplicity of self is no different than parts exploration and parts negotiation in nlp. christopher mace’s generating free belief exercise is the same as nlp’s collapsing anchors pattern. belief as a tool along with hypersigilization make perfect sense if you coordinate your chosen beliefs using nlp’s logical levels pyramid. sigilization itself is known in hypnotism as symbology and mantric sigils are symbolic language which can be done using clean language questions or ericksonian hypnosis with milton model phrases. finally, the most freestyle ritual you can do is not that dissimilar to covert hypnotic conversation or stage hypnosis skits done in front of crowds. psychology’s use of synthetic drugs is a slavish debasement of psychonaut work. i could go on and on. hypnotism and chaos magick - they are the same techniques under different names.
but see, here’s the thing that is rarely mentioned in chaos magick, and probably the biggest reason the trad-leaning mages don’t take it seriously: your beliefs have to be CONGRUENT.
one thing i have never liked about chaos magick is that it lends itself incredibly well to the dunning-kruger effect. as a matter of fact, chaos magick ENCOURAGES the d-k effect in a lot of ways, including it’s IOT system’s glorification of the jester which of course in the real world devolves into the online troll and cynical chaote detractors mocking newbies for their failed magickal backfirings.
point is, cobbling together a bunch of beliefs that at some level do not fit together creates duckbilled-platypus magick that doesn’t quite add up. and foregoing learning in order to ‘improvise’ without knowing or being taught fundamental basics is a recipe for incompetents pretending to be innovators. for those reasons i feel that chaos magick lost its way a long time ago. when i check the seemingly-deserted IOTNA site, i can almost feel the tumbleweeds blowing through the ISDN lines. the trend has passed.
i have taken a few well-known chaos magick rituals online and rewritten them with only a basic knowledge of hypnotic trance, and by doing so i have spotted and corrected quite a few glaring omissions and errors in the rites themselves, which now lets me understand why i didn’t make any sense of them when i first came across them: they were badly put together to begin with.
the fundamentals of the tech are still sound and they find evidence in other fields, but chaos magick as it is practiced and promoted online is often a hodgepodge of techniques, all of which are horribly explained, many of which don’t work, some of which do but almost in spite of themselves, and few of which make any sense to anyone who wants to learn magick that is repeatable and reliable.
Close, but no cigar. That word “belief” has got to go!
What happens when you are actively believing in something? You are focusing your attention on it. The thing is, you can focus your attention on things you don’t believe in at all, and they still manifest.
I’ve been repeating my first rule of dream control often enough around here “Everything requires your attention to exist” that I hope it’s beginning to sink in irregardless of your beliefs (that’s how I operate)
My second rule is “The more attention you give something, the more related detail it manifests”. That related detail is the associations belonging to what you are focused on. For instance, in June there was a day I was super horny and obsessed with getting laid. All day I kept stumbling across women’s panties everywhere, on the sidewalk, in a parking lot, in a tree… Never seen so many panties strewn about in my life! Lol. Never did get laid that day BTW.
Close, but no cigar. That word “belief” has got to go!
What happens when you are actively believing in something? You are focusing your attention on it. The thing is, you can focus your attention on things you don’t believe in at all, and they still manifest.
I’ve been repeating my first rule of dream control often enough around here “Everything requires your attention to exist” that I hope it’s beginning to sink in irregardless of your beliefs (that’s how I operate)
My second rule is “The more attention you give something, the more related detail it manifests”. That related detail is the associations belonging to what you are focused on. For instance, in June there was a day I was super horny and obsessed with getting laid. All day I kept stumbling across women’s panties everywhere, on the sidewalk, in a parking lot, in a tree… Never seen so many panties strewn about in my life! Lol. Never did get laid that day BTW.[/quote]
Belief in the purest form is not just active but is passive as well. When a person believes something completely and without question there is no need of focus or thought about it. This is why Chaos Magick is a mindset first, and practice second. You will not get the results you desire with the wrong mindset in place. It is a completely different paradigm. Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted.
oh, IT WORKS. lol. well, some of it. some of the other stuff…well…yeah.
that is an NLP presupposition. in the huna subsection of esoteric NLP, it has been said that ‘energy goes where attention flows.’
which begs the question of how many people really believe anything completely and without question? VERY FEW.
once again i turn to NLP and hypnotism. NLP’s communication model explains how experience forms beliefs and values, among other things. it is very useful to study the NLPCM. NLP also has the logical levels pyramid, which is very useful for forming chaos magick-styled temporary belief systemsin a comprehensive way.
i wouldn’t even say chaos magick is a mindset. i think of chaos magick as reprogramming your values and beliefs and then moving the energy of experience through them to find out how they differ. chaos magick is a form of reality hacking. nothing is real, everything is permitted, and by that nothing is real = your beliefs and values are not set in stone; and everything (that a different belief or value could lead to) is permitted (to happen if you allow your modified beliefs to take you to a place you had not considered before).
I had started studying about chaos magic about 6 months or longer ago I didn’t get very far through one book I had picked up by Andrian Vitimus but I hope to return back to it as for I do want to learn how reality manipulation through the ovayki current