The stargames

The interesting part about the Order of Nine Angles is that most people will look for it and only find the MSS on culling and the predatory nature of a member. It goes much deeper as you progress as the true goal of a member of Order of Nine Angles is to achieve Lapis Philosophicus, which the merging of the Sinister and the Numinous. The merging of opposites/dualities within yourself. This is considered one of the hardest tasks of the Order because of the nature of Work within it, mainly the fact that during the first three Stages of the Way you are focusing on the Sinister and harboring it within yourself through the Insight Roles, Dark Gods, Esoteric Chant, Rituals (Black Book of Satan) and real life acts. To begin to realize the Numinous in the Stage of Internal Adept is an extreme challenge for some and many people don’t make it that far.

To say that culling is “weak” is showing your own hypocrisy. You guys regularly talk about killing people with curses and magic, but when you go and find someone whose character is shown to be harmful to others and you execute him either through the Death Curse, through assassination, or through the Ritual of Recalling (or some variant thereof), you call it “wrong”, “weak”. That makes you hypocrites. “Let’s kill him with a curse way because killing him in real life is wrong and should be condemned.” Whoever believes that is “weak”.

On the note of the essay on Evil by THEM, that was written to expound on the true nature [Physis] of Evil Incarnate/Personified. It was not saying, “Yeah, we go out and kill babies cause we’re so hardcore”. Maybe if you actually read every part of the article and thought from a beginning Satanist’s eyes (who believes that he needs to be so hardcore evil), then you might learn something. Or not.

Anyway, the Order of Nine Angles goes much deeper than many can see, but I will agree that it does attract very unbalanced individuals to it. But then it just makes them easier to cull.

Where is the hypocrisy in saying that a grown ass man killing an infant to test how evil he can be is different than putting a death curse on a piece of shit child molester or date rapist? If I knew for a fact I would never be caught I’d rather save the energy and effort and do it in a mundane fashion anyways, it’d be a hell of a lot quicker.

It’s weak when it takes a group of people to attack a weaker target/s. Why not attack a group of athletic college kids? That would certainly instill more fear than raping and hurting a couple of 90lbs freshmen girls. They likely won’t be attacking anyone of equal or greater strength because they’d get their asses handed to them. The same reason skinheads, gangbangers and any other weak punk ass bitch who rapes an elderly woman does it. They want the security and false sense of power that comes from hurting a weaker opponent who poses no substantial threat.

I’ll play devil’s advocate to your theory, where is the strength in killing a baby and murdering/raping its parents? Does it really take strength to perform such an act? To a degree I could say it requires a strong amount of overcoming ones social programming, but why not do these same acts to someone who could fight back effectively? Surely the feeling of dominating an equal opponent must be more rewarding.

Anyway, the Order of Nine Angles goes much deeper than many can see, but I will agree that it does attract very unbalanced individuals to it. But then it just makes them easier to cull.
I agree with that. I am aware that ONA has many valuable manuscripts with lots of wisdom in them.

But with that

To say that culling is "weak" is showing your own hypocrisy. You guys regularly talk about killing people with curses and magic, but when you go and find someone whose character is shown to be harmful to others and you execute him either through the Death Curse, through assassination, or through the Ritual of Recalling (or some variant thereof), you call it "wrong", "weak". That makes you hypocrites. "Let's kill him with a curse way because killing him in real life is wrong and should be condemned." Whoever believes that is "weak".
I disagree. I speak only for myself now not for the other members of the forum. I differentiate the act of killing/cursing etc someone who has wronged you and messed up your life in many ways from the act of killing a random person who is defensless in order to reach a higher mindstate or to communicate with the Darkness (whatever that might be). Personally, I am trying to reach the ultimate power in me and I want to be able to have dominion over every aspect of my life. If I want people to face justice because they fucked up my life I will do whatever it takes to achieve that. I am not talking about some kind of divine justice, I can't wait until "God" decides to make them pay for their actions. I don't believe in such things, I believe in the power of myself and since I'm trying to have the power of a living god I am the one who is going to make them pay. Such acts (and many others) for me are acts of strength. Reclaiming and rebuilding your life is strength.

The ONA guy I mentioned in a previous post was telling me that he can kill me with one hand because he is strong and that I would be a good victim because I am physically weak. With such statements I can only laugh!
Where is the strength in killing someone when you’re many times bigger and stronger than him/her?
Is it really an act of becoming a living god when you gather some of your friends and rape a defensless girl?
Does cutting a newborn in half bring you closer to higher realms of existence?
I don’t think so.

I am not going to talk about what is right and wrong because these words have a different meaning for everyone.
I am only saying that I can’t equate the killing of someone who is your enemy with the mindless killing/raping/torturing of those who have never done anything to harm you.

I’m sorry, you seem to not even have read any of the Order’s writings on culling, let me elucidate: according to Tradition, the sacrifice must be male and around the age of 21. Females are not acceptable as a sacrifice under any circumstances according to Tradition unless it’s a willing sacrifice.

The Order’s stance on children is thus: All children are innocent and unsuitable for any form of culling or aggression until the age of 16 or 18, when they can begin to form their own opinions. It doesn’t matter what religion they were raised with, how they act, if they are young, they are untouchable and rightly so. Members are more likely to kill the child rapist than the child.

In order to capture the sacrifice, they must meet certain criteria: they must display, in three tests conducted by the individuals who will do the culling, a lack of honor and respect. They must be shown to be individuals who don’t contribute and cause harm. So there is no sacrifice of “innocent individuals”, ever.

LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR: There was no advocating of the murder of infants, he was making an example, but you don’t seem to want to understand this.

Since we’re only taking snippets of other’s posts and thinking that’s everything that was said:
“I am only saying that I can’t equate the killing of someone who is your enemy with the mindless killing/raping/torturing of those who have never done anything to harm you.”

Is not someone who harms other people or yourself your enemy? It’s acceptable to cull someone who harms you and fails all three tests.

“If I want people to face justice because they fucked up my life I will do whatever it takes to achieve that.”

So if they won’t die by curses, then what? Are you gonna kill them with your own hand? Or are you too good for that? You are against killing your enemy with a blade or bullet, but to send a demon after them and have them be tortured through their dreams and daily life, that’s okay? THAT sounds more like torture than any culling.

“Where is the hypocrisy in saying that a grown ass man killing an infant to test how evil he can be is different than putting a death curse on a piece of shit child molester or date rapist? If I knew for a fact I would never be caught I’d rather save the energy and effort and do it in a mundane fashion anyways, it’d be a hell of a lot quicker.”

Okay, so you’re taking that essay on Evil as the entirety of the Order of Nine Angles philosophy? You must be mistaken because there is nowhere in the Order Mythos or MSS that states, “Since you’re a grown ass man, kill an infant to test how evil you can be,” Please, show me where it says that.

One final note: Where does it say in any Order MSS that you should rape a young woman? I’m confused since I’ve never seen an MSS advocate the rape of a woman, especially considering women are especially sacred in the Order of Nine Angles Tradition.

Ok, I’ll do another try to explain what I meant before.

I'm sorry, you seem to not even have read any of the Order's writings on culling, let me elucidate: according to Tradition, the sacrifice must be male and around the age of 21. Females are not acceptable as a sacrifice under any circumstances according to Tradition unless it's a willing sacrifice.

The Order’s stance on children is thus: All children are innocent and unsuitable for any form of culling or aggression until the age of 16 or 18, when they can begin to form their own opinions. It doesn’t matter what religion they were raised with, how they act, if they are young, they are untouchable and rightly so. Members are more likely to kill the child rapist than the child.

In order to capture the sacrifice, they must meet certain criteria: they must display, in three tests conducted by the individuals who will do the culling, a lack of honor and respect. They must be shown to be individuals who don’t contribute and cause harm. So there is no sacrifice of “innocent individuals”, ever.


I am aware of how the people for sacrifices are chosen, I’ve read the manuscripts that describe the tests you’re talking about.
I don’t want to make this post full of quotes, so I know the women’s place in ONA and no one has claimed that there’s a manuscript that talks about raping and killing women.
What I meant was that some people misinterpret what they read and control of their actions can be easily lost and these people might engage in such actions for their own reasons by interpreting some texts however they see fit.
Okay, so you're taking that essay on Evil as the entirety of the Order of Nine Angles philosophy? You must be mistaken because there is nowhere in the Order Mythos or MSS that states, "Since you're a grown ass man, kill an infant to test how evil you can be," Please, show me where it says that.
Again, I don't believe that anyone claimed that a small part of a manuscript can summarize ONA's philosophy.
So if they won't die by curses, then what? Are you gonna kill them with your own hand? Or are you too good for that? You are against killing your enemy with a blade or bullet, but to send a demon after them and have them be tortured through their dreams and daily life, that's okay? THAT sounds more like torture than any culling.
Hahaha, ok one last try! When did I say that I am against killing someone physically? I agree with what TheWanderingFool has said "If I knew for a fact I would never be caught I'd rather save the energy and effort and do it in a mundane fashion anyways, it'd be a hell of a lot quicker". Also, if I was physically strong enough and able to kill someone with my hands then I would do it. But I am not.

Thank you for the concise response Nereid.

It seemed to me the entire time that we were all thinking about different things when we posted. But it also seemed like there was this thread of thought that the ONA endorses the murder of innocent people and the rape of young women. Atleast there’s a good amount of information and view points in all the posts thus far.

I know you didn’t say you were gonna kill them physically, but if your curses and demons failed, what then? Do you continue to let them meddle in your life? That’s what I was asking.

That would be irrational in my opinion, like being prejudiced against a whole nation because of the actions of an individual.

I know you didn't say you were gonna kill them physically, but if your curses and demons failed, what then? Do you continue to let them meddle in your life? That's what I was asking.
Well, then I guess that I would have to employ other actions whatever these may be.

I never said killing an individual with magick or a physical means is wrong. It’s illegal, but right and wrong are very subjective. What I did say was it’s hard for me to merge the idea of victimizing and torturing the innocent with spirituality and ascent. I think I was very clear in that statement, and stand behind it.

Also, I’ve read quite a bit of O9A literature, mainly because I find it fascinating how dark the imaginations and writings it’s authors can be. What causes a man to think like that? Anger at himself, at society, lack of sex or life fulfillment. Abusive situations, drug addiction, hopelessness, prison, being victimized regularly? I mean seriously what makes these guys tic? It’s like reading the writings of psychopaths and serial killers when I read some O9A authors. And what about the readers, what kind of mindset must they have to find this appealing.

Let’s look at it from another angle. The literature I quoted above was part of a male ego fantasy. The typical male ego fantasy goes: After I’ve slain my enemies I’ll plunder their village and more women will fall in love with me because of my conquest. My friends will salute me and I’ll enjoy the spoils of my victory. This authors male ego fantasy goes: I’m going to rape my victim in the ass while my buddies force feed him his tortured wife’s feces. This is quite sick in my opinion. I don’t know about you, but I couldn’t get my dick hard in this situation.

I see it quite differently, the torture, murder and rape of an individual to create a suffocating and dark environment necessary to commune with the dark gods versus using magick to curse someone. It’s mainly the murder, torture, and rape part. Murder implies that an innocent life was taken unjustly, torture and rape are the added factors of cruelty and domination. All three of these steps must be taken in order to please Evil. Those are not things I would include in a curse as I don’t give a damn about the desires of pure evil. I either want the person gone swiftly, or I want them to learn an important life lesson. I don’t get off on cursing people, that’s juvenile. Nor do I curse frequently or without examining the person, their life and their situations. When I find a person standing in my way that is truly worthy of a curse, I lay it on them. I do so without attachment and remorse. Then I sit back and watch their life unravel. Why don’t I be a man and physically take them out? Because prison is a real place that I do not wish to visit, much less spend a lifetime there. Hope this clears any misconception up. I’m always interested in alternative viewpoints, new ideas and forbidden knowledge.

555

Writhing parasite I think there was a miscommunication in what we were both talking about so I’ll clear up my comment. I was only referring to the text Zacharya had posted from the Temple of THEM. I did not say this was a philosophy held, encouraged or endorsed by the ONA. I am not completely unfamiliar with ONA but I’d be an outright liar to pretend to be an authority on the organization. My experiences with their writings having only been with some NOT all of what’s available online.

Other than that I stand behind my comments I made in reference to the text Zach posted.

“the torture, murder and rape of an individual to create a suffocating and dark environment necessary to commune with the dark gods”

That’s something that people continue to say, even though in NAOS, there is a ritual called a Pathworking that is used to invoke a Dark God and it includes none of that. At all. Even in the rituals with sacrifice, it can also be done symbolically and without it even being there. So that’s another misconception that is not true in any case.

“but why not do these same acts to someone who could fight back effectively? Surely the feeling of dominating an equal opponent must be more rewarding.”

  • TWF

As I’ve come to expect, TWF is quite genuine in his expressions, alas I believe that WP is getting too caught in semantics and labels…“good” “bad” “weak” “strong”.

Mastering people is easy. To master the lust FOR power and the greed within…now THAT is POWER.

To become MASTER OF THE TEMPLE is to master the Self, yes with a capital “S”…to master YOUR self. Do you REALLY want to do something “dark” and “sinister” and that’s a true game changer? Face that which indeed terrifies YOU and no one else. Face it ALONE, with no direction from an order, or a teacher, or a paradigm.

This somewhat foolish post reminds me of a saying in the Thai Forest Tradition from Buddhadasa Bhikkhu:

“If you really want enlightenment…you have to be willing to let it ALL go…including Buddhism, and go into the forest and practice alone”.

There is no guide books, no teachers, no ONA, no NOTHING that is going to get you there. not even BALG and EA.

Killing a child, an entity that isn’t even aware and is surely “weak” in the sense of being underdeveloped in every facet, that’s an act of pure weakness.

I know I want POWER!!! Raw Occult Power!!! The type where I can develop the Siddhis, know the teachings of the demons in BoA, transverse this vessel of flesh AT WILL. Literally walk through fucking walls…that’s POWER. Complete evolutionary power.

[quote=“WrithingParasite, post:30, topic:892”]“the torture, murder and rape of an individual to create a suffocating and dark environment necessary to commune with the dark gods”

That’s something that people continue to say, even though in NAOS, there is a ritual called a Pathworking that is used to invoke a Dark God and it includes none of that. At all. Even in the rituals with sacrifice, it can also be done symbolically and without it even being there. So that’s another misconception that is not true in any case.[/quote]
That’s true WrithingParasite, but I am still wondering about the existence of all these misconceptions.
TheWanderingFool made a point about overcoming social programming. But isn’t this another kind of programming? I’m talking about people who use an order (or are being used by it, I don’t know what’s the best thing to say) to escape the hard side of reality. In my opinion it is those people who give rise to these misconceptions, not just about ONA but about other orders or Magick in general.

So why is this issue still out of control?
Of course someone who wants to learn will do his own research and form his own opinion about what an order/system is and what is not but I find it really annoying when people use an order’s name (or satanism in general for example) to justify their needs for some acts.
That reminds me of a case some years ago in my country where three “satanists” raped, tortured and killed two women as a ritual sacrifice to Satan. When they were caught they claimed that the devil made them do it, that they were influenced by the writtings of various orders etc. They did everything to prove that they were being used. Even now in my country satanism is associated with this case.
So my point here is that these misconceptions are always going to be around as long as there are people who keep them alive with their acts.
But in ONA’s case for example, why doesn’t someone step up and stop it? They don’t care if the order’s name is associated with such things or they do nothing because they want the order’s name to be synonymous in the minds of people with danger and fear?

There was one thing I forgot to mention in my last post…

[quote=“WrithingParasite, post:24, topic:892”]LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR: There was no advocating of the murder of infants, he was making an example, but you don’t seem to want to understand this.

Since we’re only taking snippets of other’s posts and thinking that’s everything that was said:
“I am only saying that I can’t equate the killing of someone who is your enemy with the mindless killing/raping/torturing of those who have never done anything to harm you.”[/quote]

I understand quite adequately what the message he was attempting to convey. He was talking about the limitlessness of evil, how there is no finite point that we could ever comprehend as the totality of evil.

I also understand that if I were to put my name on that essay and replace the family with an interracial couple and replace the word evil with hate many would think that I advocate hate crimes and rightfully so.

Just because I don’t pop up and say “I’m the Wandering Fool and I approve this message!” doesn’t mean that I don’t know how many will view my work and the assumptions that would be made in regards to it. The guy who wrote the text Zach pasted was far from a dummy, there were many many ways he could have expressed the endless drive for more that evil requires of its servants/disciples/whatever. He consciously chose to use the most graphic and violent depiction that he could possibly come up with.

Is it really that far fetched to come to conclusion that it was written to help draw in people with the same mind set and disposition toward violence? That it was written in a way to present themselves in a specific light?

I’m going to make sure I’m clear on this before I’m done as well. I am not here to pass judgement on the ONA or TOT or its members. Whoever wishes to join the organizations I wish you luck on your endeavors. It doesn’t affect me one way or the other and I could honestly care less.

“They don’t care if the order’s name is associated with such things or they do nothing because they want the order’s name to be synonymous in the minds of people with danger and fear?”

Well, as I’m sure you know, there is no Order proper that addresses all the press interviews, there are only localized Nexions. With that in mind, I know that Chloe 352 has addressed this matter many times on her blog. But in the end, those who are attracted by the “evil” image might stay for the real Ethos behind it, thus getting a dedicated Sinister Adept.

"Is it really that far fetched to come to conclusion that it was written to help draw in people with the same mind set and disposition toward violence? "

I saw it as a exposition on the nature of Evil, especially since that’s a major concept in the layman’s mind. It was an interesting essay to say that least and the graphic description wasn’t all that bad. There are worse things on the Internet that actually happened.

I’ll give you that. If nothing else it got people talking about it.

For a forum which is essentially for black magicians there sure is a lot of cliche, politically correct bullshit being thrown around to be sure no one has any views that are “too extreme”… seriously go tell it to your vegan support groups and get the fuck out, good christ hahaha.

The Order of Nine Angles’ reading material is perfectly “user friendly” if you’re educated and intelligent enough to actually look up a fucking word you don’t know…

It would not be at all difficult to create a board and play the star game with a friend, it does develop certain mental processes very well and there are certain “aha” moments to be had after learning its ins and outs. If you don’t have the will power to go through with drawing a friggin board and playing a game, what the hell are you doing on a forum for black magick, the ultimate feat of willpower?

I swear I don’t know what half of you people are doing here…

I haven’t seen anyone tell another member their views are too extreme. Just don’t attack me and my opinion if you find it not extreme enough. Simple as that. Some here would deem culling a necessary practice for godhood while others think working through the darkness in one’s self is sufficient. I’m assuming your as intelligent as you portray yourself to be so that shouldn’t be a difficult concept to grasp. This is a discussion board for people to discuss their varying views. If we all agreed on the same points what would be the point?

Some have it in their head that black magician means you have to be the most cold, hard motherfucker to ever draw breath. For me it means walking my own path to empower myself. Personally I don’t have to kill people to feel empowered. If need to kill I will be it mundane or otherwise. People just have differing views of when it is necessary.

What I’ve read about the ONA I would agree that it’s not difficult concepts to grasp. While much of it was fascinating that doesn’t mean that I agree with all of it or wish to follow their line of thinking.

[quote=“Garcian, post:36, topic:892”]It would not be at all difficult to create a board and play the star game with a friend, it does develop certain mental processes very well and there are certain “aha” moments to be had after learning its ins and outs. If you don’t have the will power to go through with drawing a friggin board and playing a game, what the hell are you doing on a forum for black magick, the ultimate feat of willpower?

I swear I don’t know what half of you people are doing here…[/quote]

So how about a picture of your working board? Surely since you have both the necessary willpower to both draw a board and play a game you should have plenty left over to post a picture.

As far as your assertion to people using political correctness. I’ve seen no evidence of that in this thread. If David Myatt/Anton Long’s associations to white supremacist, radical Muslim, anti-Semitic ties and leanings were used as an argument to invalidate the ONA I would agree with you.

Additionally I’d like to add that those who feel that someone should act and believe in a certain manner In order to call themselves a black magician should take a step back, look at how they are projecting their own views on others and then getting angry when they don’t live up to the expectations they placed on them. This tells me A) you still have a lot of work to do on yourself to work past your ego and projections of the world and those who inhabit it. B) if your following the teachings of another your just as much a sheep as those you condemn.

Last time I checked this forum was called become a living god. We were focused around the concept of awakening the god within. Ascension through darkness and anti-transmigration of the soul. While Black magick is an essential part of this forum it is an equal thread to White Magick, and Haitian Voudon. It’s about different paths coming together and discovering the truth hidden in their secrets. It’s about evoking and communing with ancient spirits and sharing your insight with other members. Perhaps you are used to another forum and an alternate culture. But no one is trying to stifle you here. If you want to talk about murdering puppies and torturing women and children then go ahead. Be as dark as you want to, I encourage it. It’s your self expression. Speak publicly about it. Tell us how you improved through such heinous actions. Inquiring minds want to know. Tell me about your most extreme views. What do you have to worry about? My disapproval? That seems like a very small price to pay for true self expression. So go on and do it.

I never said anyone needs to be any sort of a “cold hard” anything to be a black magician, I also don’t recall getting angry about anything when anyone didn’t agree with me… I haven’t been paying that close of attention frankly, but no I can’t say I’m angered by that sort of thing…

I’d really like you to personally examine just what in the fuck you mean when you say things about “getting past your ego” or “working on yourself” because its something I see people regurgitate often like its gospel but upon closer examination can’t make a solid case for what it even means…

I’ll just do you a favor and let you know its the remnants of some pretty blatant programming you’ve undergone in our modern society and you’ve got a lot of self-realization to do if you still haven’t dug that stuff up.

There, that’s a couple weeks of meditation I just took care of for ya, don’t sweat it.

In general the “forum regular/veteran” types on the internet tend to be incapable of uttering the word “ego” without being a hypocrite… it’s one of the most entertaining patterns I’ve seen, although I honestly don’t spend any time on the internet anymore ever since I got invited to the totally sweet dance party in hell. By the way it is totally sweet… you guys should check it out some time when you’re not busy with sustaining and protecting your egos…

Soooo you took the one paragraph from my comment that was not directed at you personally and made it all about you, then you decide to lecture me about ego. Thank you for that I obviously have much to learn.

Yes people tend to regurgitate phrases like work through your issues, get past your ego, know thyself ad nauseum. That’s because people need to do it, good advice is often the most repeated. All that self realization you’ve been busy touting I’d think you’d be aware of that. If you honestly think its some programming by society that’s says plenty, more than I care to elaborate on but there’d be no point since you know it all already.

Your party sounds great I’ll let you get back to touching dicks and giggling with your buddies.

Oh yeah how’s your Stargame board coming? I’m eagerly awaiting pictures. Me and the rest of the idiots here need the visual aid to do it ourselves.