The Qlippoth, Thaumiel, Satan, and Moloch

Hi folks!

This is a video I made about the Qlippoth, specifically Thaumiel. It’s part of an ongoing series I am working on. I’m sharing it here because this is a great place to talk about this sort of thing. I’d be eager to hear what any of you think about it.


Do you have a written version of this? I can’t watch more than five minutes of someone talking to the camera and my English listening is kinda rusted, so I cannot listen while I do other things either, and I want to know what you have to say on the subject, since ironically there is not much conversation about the Qliphoth in this forum of LHP black magicians

In YouTube, if you click the three dots under the bottom right of the video, it opens up a little menu where you can click Open Transcript, which’ll give you a speech-to-text transcription of the video that you can read. Sometimes it garbles words, particularly foreign or lesser-used occult terms, but you can always just click on that particular section and the video will play from that timestamp.

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Technomagick at its best, thank you :purple_heart:


I read the transcription, and first I want to thank you, @rosecrowley for talking about this lovely subject. I don’t share your view, but I understand why you see that qlipha that way and I respect that

I took a look at the auto-generated transcription from YouTube. It doesn’t really make a lot of sense. Too many crucial words are missing, which would prevent a reader from understanding when I am voicing my own point of view. I take a fairly dialectical approach here, juxtaposing several different standpoints about the nature of the Qlippoth and their usefulness.

I uploaded a better version of the transcript to YouTube, since this particular video has very flawed audio it will be helpful to people until I have a chance to rerecord it.

I’m curious about the substance of your disagreement. One of the main reasons I shared this here was for dialogue and debate. I feel that’s the best way to learn. So I’m especially curious how your view of this subject differs.


As Lon Milo says, everybody has his/her Qabalah and qabalist disagree all the time.

Maybe I didn’t get what you tried to say when I read the transcription, but I remember you said that the political and economical system was like Moloch in the sense that people sacrifice themselves to it. As a person who lives in a country that suffered socialism, I would never say bad things about the system that allowed me to live an overall comfortable life with overall freedom and the possibility to study what I love without being executed for that, even those who want to destroy the system tweet their intentions from the Iphones. However, what you say is true, a lot of people sacrifice themselves to the king, but as the Book of the Law says, kings shall be kings and slaves shall serve. My country is currently suffering a social chaos created by people that want to install socialism again, thus the “adversarial aspect” against the king is kinda dumb here. I never saw Satan and Moloch as opposing forces, I’ve always seen them as my sword and my shield when I manifest that qlipha, because in some stages of my developement I’ve had to be both (the guy who misses classes a lot, arrives always late and doesn’t do any homework, yet has the best marks of his generation and is treated like Jesus by his teachers and classmates). Sorry if this results to be unrealted to what you actually tried to say, but it shows part of my view on that qlipha

It’s certainly true that the reading of Satan and Moloch as opposing forces is a novel way of reading it.

This site forbids the discussion of politics. So all I’ll just say that I wasn’t talking about the system of any particular country, but the system taken as abstract archetype. Some may be better than others, but I was trying to depict a relatively amoral point of view that highlighted how all of them are alike in certain ways. All systems are destroyed eventually, either by their own hand or by another. Reality is merciless that way.

The book of the law does say that kings will be kinds, etc. But it also say that if someone is really a king then you can’t harm them. So if someone or some force is being harmful in a way you feel called to oppose, I think you should go for it.

Thus the slaves shall serve

“If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him”. I’ve always interpreted that as that those who are “kings” have a special relationship with Nuit. The intercourse with Nuit always make their Hadit grow, while others get destroyed by her, therefore, no matter what experience a King experiences, he will never be hurt and will always be more than he was before the experience. I’ve met “beggars” who can not hide their “poverty” and just get stuck because of what happened to them or regardless of what happens to them

I think the word King is being used in an esoteric sense. The word “hurt” probably has an esoteric sense to it as well. Compare with the claim of Socrates that nothing evil can happen to a good person. In my mind those two passages are making a very similar claim in a different context. Note that Crowley worked for and against various governments. I agree that the word King signifies someone who has a relationship to some higher power connected to the cosmology of the text and the new Aeon.

Well, it is a class A document, not even Hyemaneus-senpai can tell us what all those things mean, but it is nice to be pestilent with another center of pestilence. I think that when you see the legacy that Master Therion left in Kenneth Grant, you can see that Master Therion was not hurt at all.

What do you mean about Grant specifically? Are you saying that the lineage of Thelema expressed itself so effectively in Grant that “Crowley” understood as an abstract entity continued on through him. Or are you saying something else?

When I first investigated about Crowley, I found websites that said things like that he got destroyed by his practices and the drugs he consumed, and thus one should not follow him. However, he met Kenneth Grant almost before dying, it was around the time when Dion Fortune died (Master Therion and her used to send cards to each other, in one of which she admited that she wanted to embrace his teachings), yet he taught things to Kenneth that were so valuable (including the secret of the IX degree, which Kenneth had to figure out himself based on what Crowley was teaching him) that Kenneth was able to write my favorite occult book ever, “Nightside of Eden”. If you ask me, Crowley was totally a King. Also, in his last days he was quite nice to people. Verse 22 of chapter II tells him that the drugs wouldn’t harm him, and by how his life ended, I considered that promise fullfiled. Also, the explanation that Kenneth gives about the secret of the IX degree improved my sex magick greatly. Obviously that secret has more applications than what he explained, but just as he explained it, it works wonders


I think the perception of whether a magician has been destroyed has to do with the Abyss. When one has crossed the Abyss one may appear to the unworthy as if one has gone mad or like one is lost in some other way.

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When I crossed the Abyss, my mother said “we don’t have money for paying you a therapy, you gotta do therapy to yourself”, so I did the therapy that Master Therion did to himself, but without the drugs and without the traveling, and it worked so well that now I feel like that Russian guy who removed his own appendix

You speak my language, that’s beautiful

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Ultimately one must become the doctor relative to one’s own ailments and the master relative to one’s own path. I think that’s what Crowley meant when he said that after a certain point the aspirant must be left in the care of their HGA. Don’t skip out on the drugs though. That’s the icing on the cake

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Sometimes I do spiritual works just to feel the sensations, the disfunctional chemistry of my brain makes me feel everything thrice as intense

I achieved the K&C almost at the same time as another guy of my current. When I realized that some of the things that I attributed to my demons were actually that intelligence of myself, I understood that quote of Lon Milo that says “the god I adored and that in fact was my Holy Guardian Angel” or something like that, since then I began working with my Higher Self AND the demons, instead of what the OTO says that one must do. I also learned more about the use of the Higher Self reading the only balg author I like, which is Asenath Mason, who in a very subtle way teaches the best way of having sex with spirits. Sometimes I give the hint of in what part of “Draconian Ritual Book” it is that knowledge, but no one here seems to care

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That’s very interesting. Sometimes it seems to me that some of the demons I’ve been working with on a long term basis are a part of my higher self in some sense or another. It seems to me, based on my research and experience, that the self is less like a discreet “energetic object” and more like a multidimensional topology. Viewed from a lower dimensional cross section, some curves on that topology may appear as separate beings. But from a more exalted point of view they can be seen as expressions of a single current, except not a magical current as people usually use the word, but the current of one’s own being viewed from outside of time.

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Actually, I thought about the possibility that all the demons I work with were just my Higher Self playing with puppets, but I came to the conclusion that if that was true, then I would be truly a god incarnate, as that would mean that the things I attributed to the work of demons were actually done by myself, which would be super cool, but I’ve had too many external experiences with the demons and I don’t really think I’m that cool. Besides, when I accomplished the task that I had to accomplish in this incarnation, my Higher Self stopped guiding me and became a tool, much like having another arm. The K&C is supposed to be the most imporant work as it leads to the knowledge of one’s True Will, but when that will is done beyond just expressing it throught the ego, one wears a silent crown, in my experience