The Goetia's Four Kings and the speed of the magic

[quote=“Gnosis, post:19, topic:3079”]Also, what do you think of this attribute of Bael:

Beelzebub is the Patron of all of the Orient (Far East), Martial Arts and Asian Culture. He was Prince of the Seraphim and He has a raspy voice.
[url=http://www.freewebs.com/eridu666/Beelzebub.html]http://www.freewebs.com/eridu666/Beelzebub.html[/url][/quote]

Bael and Belzebub are two distinct spirits int he Goetic tradition. Belzebub, here, is second chief after Lucifer and one incredible spirit. Bael is the first king under Oriens.

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The list of the hierarchy from which the Goetia derives is found in several manuscripts and it is essentially consistent, although there is variability in the names of the lesser spirits (but not in their descriptions!) I have myself been shown a medieval German manuscript which, if authentic, predates any ‘known’ ones by several centuries and gives credence to the idea that this particular list was brought out of the orient from far older Magian traditions, rather than being concocted by some Renaissance magician. I have received seals for the chiefs and the four kings from this consistent with the style of the Goetia and lo-and-behold, the one for Paimon is a variant of the one found in the Goetia (the four kings all have seals that seem to resemble some sort of crown in the particular element). The Abramelin hierarchy differs slightly by addition, rather than omission, while I personally don’t think much of the much later and rather unrelated grimoires, although even here we find e.g. Lucifer & Belzebub etc. as the chiefs in the Grimorium Verum and the four kings in the Black Dragon.

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Send Paimon after someone and they'll feel really awful/sick and recover. Use Murmur and they'll report nightmares and depression the next day. But use Marchosias and he'll rig up an amusing series of catastrophes for them - "bad luck."

I surely need to give that combination a shot.

For some reason, I still only have limited success with Paimon. I mean, I can always communicate with Paimon with no issue but seem to have problems in terms of getting the results I desire. I wonder then if its because I am not directing Paimon in the way that best utilizes its traits.

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I have myself been shown a medieval German manuscript which, if authentic, predates any ‘known’ ones by several centuries and gives credence to the idea that this particular list was brought out of the orient from far older Magian traditions, rather than being concocted by some Renaissance magician.[/quote]

That sounds awesome! Do you remember the name of that manuscript? Can it be bought?

I really want it to be either Jake Stratton-Kent or David Rankine. I’m just completely drawing a blank on which book it was. It was a great big “List of Lists” toward the back of the book. Just big messy lists sectioned by grimoire. No fancy charts or attempts to “reconcile” things. What made it unique was that it kept in who served under who. The way I remember it, the manuscript being presented was fairly short so they rounded out the book with lots of appendices. I spent a lot of time recently digging through “Demon Guides” so they’re all running together.

I see. I recall chatting with S.V.E. a while ago and he told me the the same thing. Am I to assume that setting a spirit to a task outside it’s specialization would be a waste of both parties time? Or is that depending on the spirit/objective?

The point is fair enough, but the female essence and psyche are very different to those of the male (feminists and 'gender theorists' can sue me).

I would, but you’re taking the time to share your knowledge, so call it even? :stuck_out_tongue: What about in the case of an effeminate man? Do you believe the spirits power would be less potent? Or does it not matter?

It's not at all strange to me that a spirit who can make young women dotty would encounter problems trying to do the same for a grown man. Given that some spirits are explicitly said to procure love of both sexes, I think it more likely that spirits specific to men might have been ignored altogether ... at least looking past any homosexual tendencies of magicians.

Ah. That makes a lot of sense too. I had briefly considered that, but was hoping it wasn’t the case. Nice to get some confirmation though, that really had been bothering me for quite a while. Thank you!

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnKg70lNCGU&list=PLDD574F0C444F5BD9]- YouTube

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I’m sorry, but what is the relevance of you posting this ignorant rant by some absurd atheist with a fetish for costume Satanism?

Poete, what do you think of Belial, who is earth and fire at the same time?

Obviously there is more to this than just the association with a single element under a king.

I don’t agree that he is “earth and fire” and I have seen no basis for the assertion stated as if it were fact other than an “he seemed like it when I evoked him”, which may be partly true and may be influenced by the description in the Goetia of a fiery chariot. Belial is the chief spirit under Paimon, which would associate him, in the system of Goetic Tarot that I have learned, with the Knight of Cups and make him “fire of water” or “water behaving as fire”, although it really means he is a lower aspect of the masculine energy in the element water. He is deep, dark, and volatile.

If you don’t quite follow, in this sense the hypercosmic sun Lucifer would be “air of fire”, as the most pure manifestation of God in the cosmos, or Belzebub, the sky god “air of air” and hence “Lord of the Flies” and “Prince of the Air” etc. while the Four Kings, would actually be represented by the four queens, and so on. Which is also why I disagree with the attribution of Lucifer to the element of air.

In other words, speaking of “fire of water”, the latter use of the elemental name is in a more temporal sense, which is what we mean by these four kings ruling in the four elements, while the former use is in a spiritual sense.

Anyhow, there may be other interpretations which you are all entitled to, but I’m specifically talking about ‘the Goetia’ here as I have learned it … and I haven’t seen anybody outside of my tradition offering anything close to a complete and coherent system surrounding these spirits.

Thank you for the answer. From your answer, I understand “water behaving as fire” in a boiling sense. Do you think this is correct? Have you ever met Belial? Which Sephira do you think he resides in?

And a storming sea

Have you ever met Belial?

I have had to meet all 12 of Paimon’s chiefs.

Which Sephira do you think he resides in?

I’m not a Kabbalist in any way and I doubt that the Goetia tradition can be sensibly reconciled to the ‘tree of life’. But still less do I believe that he is a qliphothic spirit.

By Paimon’s chiefs, do you mean chiefs that rule Paimon, or chiefs that are under Paimon? I highly doubt Belial is under Paimon’s rule, if you ask me. Although I never met Paimon, so your experience trumps mine, in this case.

Well Qabalah is originally an oral tradition, so it’s pretty unreliable now. It’s like a game of “pass the message”, which gets distorted as time passes and because of each person’s subjectivity.

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Sorry to digress, but just to clarify something, oral traditions were an extremely effective method for transmitting information.

As moderns, with a long written legacy, we have forgotten many of the techniques used by oral traditions, so we use “pass the message” or “the telephone game” as a way of teaching our children how rumors spread. This is not an accurate way of assessing formal oral traditions, however.

In any formal oral tradition, those who would be students were run through the lesson (or story or whatever it was needed to be passed on) many times, and their teacher wouldn’t allow them to move forward until they had it down perfectly. They would also use mnemonic devices like story wheels and such which further aided memory. The students who had then learned all the stories or lessons or truths would eventually become the new keepers of the tradition.

The reason that books became supreme was not that they were strictly better at storing information, as a properly trained human can store much as well. Instead, it was because it became much easier to write (and then copy) a book than it was to train a human storehouse. For the same reason, digital storage isn’t strictly better than books in terms of storing the written word - the same information can be stored either way, but copying it and storing it is much easier digitally (now that the technology exists of course).

As a side note - to control or destroy information, it is easier to kill the small number of storytellers, than it is to round up all the scribes and books. And it is easier to round up all the scribes and books than it is to track down all the digital copies. But going the other way, it is harder to sift through all the digital shit to find the good stuff than it is to find all the good books. And it is harder to find all the good books than it is to talk to your tribe’s tradition keepers.

Concentration and dilutions of important information. This is also why it is good to have an actual teacher for the things you want to learn - this person is a personal repository of the thing or system. They already know the books and the stories, and you get interactive feedback.

I mean the twelve most powerful spirits under the rule of Paimon.

I highly doubt Belial is under Paimon's rule, if you ask me. Although I never met Paimon, so your experience trumps mine, in this case.

The Goetia itself says as much:

If yu call this spirit Paimon alone yu must make him some offering to him & there will attend him 2 kings called Bebal & Abalam, & other spirits of ye order of Potestates

“Bebal” is simply the sort of mistaken reading of the name Belial that can creep into hand-written manuscripts. Either that or Weyer deliberately changed an l and i to a b. “Abalam” is, of course, Balam. Other grimoires in the tradition explicitly state these as Belial and Balam and as being under the power of Paimon.

Paimon is unquestionably the most powerful spirit listed in the Ars Goetia. Among those with a passing mention in its text, only Oriens and Amaymon can match him, and Lucifer alone is superior. Actually, I’d be hard pressed to say whether Paimon unleashed or Amaymon is the most terrible spirit I’ve ever met … except that Paimon has a softer side while Amaymon is raging red Martian energy.

Well Qabalah is originally an oral tradition, so it's pretty unreliable now. It's like a game of "pass the message", which gets distorted as time passes and because of each person's subjectivity.

Well, the Goetic tradition is not originally Kabbalistic nor even Hebraic. To be honest you’d do better looking at the Greek Magical Papyri or the Orphic teachings, or further afield in Yezidism, Mazdaism, and djinn lore than at some Medieval Jewish mysticism.

Did u get an answer to your post? I want to know myself.

Thanks,

G

Did u get an answer to your post? I want to know myself.

Thanks,

G[/quote]

I would start with the Testament of Solomon more commonly known as the Hygromanteia. While not Goetic, it is the source on which the Goetia and most Solomonic texts are based.

Here is a URL if anyone is interested I am sure there are others and I will read them all :slight_smile:

http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/test_solomon.pdf

and another

http://www.yankeeclassic.com/miskatonic/library/stacks/magic/solomon/Solomon_-_The_Testament_Key_and_Legematon_of_Solomon_(unabridged).pdf

Here is a URL if anyone is interested I am sure there are others and I will read them all :slight_smile:

http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/test_solomon.pdf

and another

http://www.yankeeclassic.com/miskatonic/library/stacks/magic/solomon/Solomon_-_The_Testament_Key_and_Legematon_of_Solomon_(unabridged).pdf[/quote]

JSK also has a copy in his new title The Testament of Cyprian the Mage.

http://scarletimprint.com/books/testament-of-cyprian/

Fantastic excitingLynda painful combination here. Hahaha. Love it