The Goetia's Four Kings and the speed of the magic

In Agrippa we read:

But Fire is twice more thin then Aire, thrice more movable, and four times more bright: and the Aire is twice more bright, thrice more thin, and four times more moveable then Water. Wherefore Water is twice more bright then Earth, thrice more thin, and four times more movable.

Oftentimes we are left frustrated when it seems a spirit has not accomplished what we asked of it, but we must pay attention to the fact that different spirits by the very nature of what they do work at different speeds. There is no way around this; the physical world is subject to the nature of time which even the spirits must obey when they are manifesting anything in it.

For the spirits of the Ars Goetia, then, this is a simple matter in principle. The spirits in this hierarchy are of an elemental nature fiery, airy, watery, or earthy and find themselves accordingly subject to the respective kings Amaymon, Oriens, Paimon, and Ariton. With the kings themselves what Agrippa said is most obvious: for all his power, Paimon is unlikely to be able to accomplish any request overnight, while Amaymon can bring you what you ask on the fly. If we were to take what is written above literally (which we shouldn’t), then the latter would work 12 times faster than the former. The pay-off for all this is that the more time is needed for a change to occur, the longer it will also take for that change to itself give way to further change. It’s a matter of stability, so to speak, and why the works of ‘hot’ spirits can blow up in your face. Ariton and his spirits work in terms of years, but build edifices that last lifetimes.

So, too, for the spirits under them. One can take love magic as an example: a very fiery spirit like Sitri can yield temporary results within minutes, while a watery one like Vuall will give create a relatively lasting effect that will take weeks to manifest. Obviously, the spirits of water work on the deeper emotions, while those of fire work on the transient passions, and we should all know how swiftly the later change while the former can last for years!

The tricky bit here is of course knowing which spirit is under which king. But that’s another story.

I offer my information on ‘Goetic spirits’ [i]as is]/i] as practical advice. I’m not interested in debating any of these points with self-appointed traditionalists or modern subjectivists, but if you have genuine questions that wouldn’t require writing a book to address, I’ll do my best to try and answer them.

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Ah practical use of the Goetics, such a nice thing to have. I would ask them myself but I either forget in the midst of ritual or find their answers to not be so suitable for the human intellect, at least initially. So while I work out some of those kinks, I have some small questions for you then.

What do you make to be the attributes and speed of Bael, Beleth, Balam, Focalor and Ronove respectively?

And you don’t need to write a book to answer that for sure!

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[quote=“Kokuto, post:2, topic:3079”]What do you make to be the attributes and speed of Bael, Beleth, Balam, Focalor and Ronove respectively?

And you don’t need to write a book to answer that for sure![/quote]

Bael works with relative speed. Think tasks achieved within days. He can cause kinds of love and hate too. Beleth robs people of their wits and leads them down the path to madness. That can take time. To contradict the Ars Goetia, Beleth and love … not a good idea at all. Balam is also on the slower side, particularly in self-development. Focalor … now that is an interesting one. I’ve never used him for anything, but what’s throwing me from making an educated guess is his dominant elemental nature … wind or water? But in any case, logic would expect quicker results here … I’m going to have to do some digging. I can’t speak of Ronove.

What would be a good place for one to begin studying and preparing to work with the Goetia as close the the original source? I hear that it is an incomplete system and really does not work due to a variety of reasons. All in all I am confused.

Poete: I’m glad you’re sharing some of your specialized knowledge in an open forum. Thank you! :slight_smile:

Poete, as always, your posts are always full of knowledge and insight; though sometimes harsh, but at times harsh is needed. Still remember from a while back when you mentioned your work with Lucifer. I would be highly interested in seeing a thread on that. Your work with Lucifer is something I have been very curious of. The few comments you made seem to ride parrallel to my own gnosis.

[quote=“Poete Maudit, post:3, topic:3079”][quote=“Kokuto, post:2, topic:3079”]What do you make to be the attributes and speed of Bael, Beleth, Balam, Focalor and Ronove respectively?

And you don’t need to write a book to answer that for sure![/quote]

Bael works with relative speed. Think tasks achieved within days. He can cause kinds of love and hate too. Beleth robs people of their wits and leads them down the path to madness. That can take time. To contradict the Ars Goetia, Beleth and love … not a good idea at all. Balam is also on the slower side, particularly in self-development. Focalor … now that is an interesting one. I’ve never used him for anything, but what’s throwing me from making an educated guess is his dominant elemental nature … wind or water? But in any case, logic would expect quicker results here … I’m going to have to do some digging. I can’t speak of Ronove.[/quote]

Beleth and love not a good idea at all? I wonder why that is. I have used Beleth and Ronove in concert several times now. But I still lack the observational experience to sufficiently define them. What I have found however is that they take either days or weeks to accomplish the tasks I’ve given, which in those instances were generalized rather than specific.
Things like having people favour me and in a week or two I gain more and more friends.

In your experience, why would you say Beleth robs people of their wits and can incite madness?

But is it not true that, in making a request to Paimon who is associated with water, the work may be done by spirits of other elements, just as Paimon’s superior is Lucifer, who is of Air?

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Since you brought up Vuall, that reminded me of a question I’ve had for some time now. When the grimoire mentions spirits that are good at acquiring the love of women, would that also be applicable to men? I realize these instructions were most likely written by men, for other men, so the omission wouldn’t be puzzling. I’m just not sure if it’s written that way because the spirits can only influence women (seems a bit silly), or because women weren’t really considered to be practicing magicians at the time, so there was no point in addressing them.

Thanks for the OP, it’s a point I really haven’t heard brought up before. Going to be digesting this for a while. Welcome back!

In general, I would say no, but it depends on the exact spirit. Sitri is quite specific to women, Gremory especially to young and beautiful ones, and Vuall too, except for his ability to make one beloved of people of course. I may be wrong, but that is my reasoning, my impression from the spirits, and my observation from anecdote. That’s not to say they won’t have an effect or couldn’t help accomplish some desire - any spirit can be put to any task.

I realize these instructions were most likely written by men, for other men, so the omission wouldn't be puzzling. I'm just not sure if it's written that way because the spirits can only influence women (seems a bit silly), or because women weren't really considered to be practicing magicians at the time, so there was no point in addressing them.

The point is fair enough, but the female essence and psyche are very different to those of the male (feminists and ‘gender theorists’ can sue me). It’s not at all strange to me that a spirit who can make young women dotty would encounter problems trying to do the same for a grown man. Given that some spirits are explicitly said to procure love of both sexes, I think it more likely that spirits specific to men might have been ignored altogether … at least looking past any homosexual tendencies of magicians.

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He can procure belovedness.

I wonder why that is.

The energies surrounding him also have the potential to drive people insane. He works on those parts of a human - it’s a fine line. Of course it all depends. Some people are very susceptible to going a bit crazy with any sort of ‘demonic’ meddling with their mind and emotions. It can awaken dormant … issues. I’ve seen such a side effect with Paimon.

Things like having people favour me and in a week or two I gain more and more friends.

That’s sounds about right.

In your experience, why would you say Beleth robs people of their wits and can incite madness?

That is what the grimoires apart from the Ars Goetia say, and I have practically verified this.

According to Weyer:

Nec est prætermittenda dominatio & potestas tanti principis, quoniam nullus est sub potestate & dominatione exorcistæ alius, qui viros & mulieres in delirio detinet, donec exorcistæ voluntatem explerint

In delirio detinet - we get our words delirium and detain from these, i.e. it literally means that he keeps men and women in a state of madness for as long as the magician wills it.

And the dominion and power of so great a prince is not to be pretermitted; for there is none under the power & dominion of the conjuror, but he that deteineth both men and women in doting [better: “foolish” or “silly”] love, till the exorcist hath had his pleasure.

A little Latin lesson: delirio above is the noun delirium in the ablative case.

dēlīrium n (genitive dēlīriī); second declension

delirium, madness, frenzy

This does not have the meaning “doting” or “doting love”. That comes from the adjective

dēlīrus m (feminine dēlīra, neuter dēlīrum); first/second declension

crazy, insane, mad
senseless, silly

But that is clearly not the word used in the text. In other words, Scot made a botched translation which Petersen has not picked up on, and this translation, as a source of the Ars Goetia, served as the basis for the erroneous claim that this spirit causes all the love that may be.

From the Folger manuscript specifically with regard to this:

His office is to make hole men sicke, and to take from a man his senses or witte, etc.

I found this :

http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=140420111531313924.jpg

I found this :

http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=140420111531313924.jpg[/quote]

Nice find, but those aren’t correct.

If you don’t follow, just look at where it places Agares in the West, while the Goetia itself claims:

The second spirit is a Duke called Agares, he is under ye power of ye East

I can go into it further, but the most glaring sign that something is seriously wrong here is placing Paimon under ‘Ziminiar’ and associating water with north.

Oh yeah didnt notice water&earth were inverted

thanks for your answer Poete Maudit.

full doc was here (I post it none the less in case there are some things valuable) : http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/GoeticDemonList.pdf

Excellent thread!

It’s an interesting theory. Does it check out against your experience?

Going through my journals, yes. I have had almost instantaneous results with Amaymon’s spirits etc.

I’ll try answer the other questions in time.

Bael works with relative speed. Think tasks achieved within days. He can cause kinds of love and hate too.

Elaborate, please?

Also, what do you think of this attribute of Bael:

Beelzebub is the Patron of all of the Orient (Far East), Martial Arts and Asian Culture. He was Prince of the Seraphim and He has a raspy voice.
http://www.freewebs.com/eridu666/Beelzebub.html

I thought this might be B.S., but before I ever even went to this web page, I had Bael telling me to get strong & learn Kung Fu, I thought it was mental masturbation before I visited this page.

Low & behold, I visit this page & Bael is the patron of Oriental Martial Arts, they also say he was known as Enlil, but I’m not sure on that one yet.

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I’ll definitely have to experiment with an eye on this for a while. Many of the spirits under the “Water” category are among the fastest for me - especially Paimon, who is the only one I’m kind of surprised by because I would’ve guessed Air, although Air of Water makes sense too. Vassago, Paimon, Murmur, and Dantalion have all worked very fast for me - immediate to overnight, provided I give them something they’re good at. However, I would call them “smooth.” They have a pinpoint efficiency so they just kind of “slip in quick.” Send Paimon after someone and they’ll feel really awful/sick and recover. Use Murmur and they’ll report nightmares and depression the next day. But use Marchosias and he’ll rig up an amusing series of catastrophes for them - “bad luck.”

There was a fairly recent book that had an appendix in the back where they listed all of the conflicting hierarchies across every major grimoire. Does anybody remember which one it was? I’ve been digging and I can’t come up with it. I do wonder why different people get different hierarchies - one thing that comes to mind is that maybe there are different calibrations for different people. I know Lucifer and others have alluded multiple times to having many different “schools” and initiations, based on the needs and maturity of the individual. But what I was thinking was that maybe the different Watchtowers/Governors in different systems act as a different “prism” - like the sun is the “key” that opens to the planets.

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