The reason I did not post this in the RHP section of the forum is because a) This is technically not a religious oriented discussion, it is more of an atheistic or agnostic discussion. b) Because I do realize that we have a good handful of members here (apparently more than what I thought) who practice forms of Christian or Catholic oriented magic, and some who practice magick while retaining their belief in the actual deity Jehovah, Christ, and even different versions of the holy mother Mary.
So I felt like posting this in the RHP section would not only stir up a controversy and result in the types of responses I am least interested in (although, if those members really want to find this post, they will find it and speak their mind anyway but that’s a risk I’m willing to take), but also because I would prefer opinions from those who are more atheistic, agnostic neutral-minded, and LHP oriented in their paths, and most of our LHP and atheistic minded members don’t even look at the RHP section.
Anyway, I was reading back over some of the main parts of the book
The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins
Feeling like I may spot something that I had missed previously and something occured to me while reading over his interpretations of the ‘supernatural’.
Definition of Supernatural-
A manifestation or event attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or of the laws of nature (i.e. ghosts, magic)
Don’t you just love how they never mention god in those example lists even though god would technically be a supernatural being based on their interpretation of the word. But they never fail to mention ghosts, spirits, and magick.
Definition of Natural-
Existing in or caused by nature, not made by humankind.
What bothered me is that, how can spirits and some gods even be considered supernatural if some of them were in fact masses of energy that preceded the creation of humankind? We know that many of these entities will claim to have always existed, and that they are in fact, the universe themselves. Not simply existing in it, but part of it. So if something has ‘always been’ and always will be, was never created but just IS, is that not more natural than supernatural?
If something exists outside of human creation, then it is natural. I had this discussion with a few hardcore atheists one time, the kind that don’t believe in magick either, and they agreed that if something exists in this universe or on any one of the planets contained therein, and that NO human or man-made machine ever laid a hand upon it or attempted to intervene in any way during that objects creation process, then that object is natural even if that object does seem strange or even god-like in nature.
So magick, being something that (as far as we know anyway) has always been a part of this universe, would that not in fact be considered something, by definition, that IS natural? Even some of the spirits we have worked with that can be traced back for centuries, in old grimoires, in old religious text books, and old folklore books with legends and eyewitness accounts, those who will also claim to have ‘always been and always will be’ and those who say that mankind had no part in their creation, wouldn’t they also be natural?
Because some of these entities seem to be a part of the collective consciousness, the macrocosm, something spawned purley by the universe itself. Even if this spawning was a result of our collective consciousness’ joining up over time and our ideas merging together until they became powerful to think these entities into existence, the entities would still not be the same as a physical creation. Man-made, yes, to an extent, but made using the powers of the mind which are directly linked to the universe. So even thoughtforms, in a way, although created by you in your own mind, your role is to play god.
You think of what you want to create, molding it, shaping its personality, and then send your thoughts out into the universe and the universe essentially creates this thoughtform for us. So IMO, anything that requires the manipulation of the energy, natural energy and particles from the universe itself, would be natural. And therefor magick, spirits, demons, etc. would also be natural.
The process of mitosis, cell divisions, and sperm mating with egg and knowing exactly what to do on its own to turn that egg into a baby, are labeled as natural because technically those processes ARE natural, it’s apparent because every species, every living creature, undergoes its own unique process of cell division (in some way) to replicate and spawn other creatures like itself. But people seem to only think that things created by god are natural, but anything involving magick and spirits are supernatural because humans created that stuff.
But if I wanted to throw that argument right back in the faces of the religious, I could say that well technically, then humans are supernatural. Because religious people say that anything that was created into existence with the help of or intervention by humans or scientific methods which were otherwise forced or intentionally manipulated is supernatural. Well, a supreme god manipulating the particles that already exist in this universe and forcing those particles to become various creatures of the likes of which he desires, that’s no different than a human thinking something into existence.
So if its truly considered supernatural when a human thinks something into existence, then god thinking his creations into existence would also be supernatural. So my point is that, there really is NO distinction what so ever between natural and supernatural. None. Everything is both natural and supernatural at the same time.
With exception of man-made objects that we have to build or put together from materials as those material we used to build that object, required other materials to first be manipulated and made so we would have the plastic or glass needed to make that item in the first place. All materials do come from various resources of the earth (i.e. plastic comes from oil) we have to use earth based materials in order to form any type of man-made object with a solid mass, but I am referring to materials, viruses, things that would not exist were it not for some foolish human saying hmmm… I wonder what happens when you mix bleach, wood shavings, folic acid, and lithium together…holy shit I just accidentally created a new virus (or a new type of plastic).
So all parts of a certain type of material are made with things of the earth but the end result, or sometimes new accidentally discovered materials are the result of someone mixing 3 natural earth made substances together that no one had previously thought to mix together. So technically, even man-made items ARE natural. The design and shape of those objects may not be natural as those were created by US, the humans, but the materials that went into making them ARE. Even if the materials are synthetic, those materials cannot created either without experimenting and mixing together earth made materials and chemicals that were made by scientifically manipulated natural materials.