Should We Judge Magick & Gods By Local Results?

By your line of reasoning, Western Magick doesn’t work either. Look at all the white people living in trailer parks, and let’s not forget the Paradise known as Appalachia. Socio-economic circumstances and lifestyle choices have nothing to do with whether or not a system of magick is viable.

OP, you may have to stitch this together on your own. What very little I know about Native American tradition, seems to be very much Shamanism. Lots of journeying, meditation, etc. I would start with reading all and any info available about Native American rituals (often referred to as “medicine”), and try to piece it together from there.[/quote]

Yeah I think too often people look at magic two dimansionally around here. I mean Haiti is very poor , it’s the voodoo capitial of the world but in general people get good results with voodoo outside haiti. People on this forum at least just say “well haitis poor so it must not work”

Now lets have a different example America is the most powerful nation in the world but it’s predominantly christian country. Does that mean that by that logic Yaweh is the strongest entity? The thing is though alot of the same people who dismiss the voodoo spirits because of Haiti do the same with Yaweh just because they don’t like him. It’s a purely emotional response from what I can tell and the equivelent of an ostrich hiding his head in a hole because he saw something he took exception to.

To me the deal with Haiti and voodoo is like a math problem where the variables don’t quite add up. The way alot of people react is the equivelent of a mathmatician assuming the problem itself is no good and throwing it in the trash rather then checking his work. I asked the spirits about it and got some interesting reponses about why things are the way they are.

Same with Yaweh, I don’t agree with what Yaweh did to the world, but I admire him as a worthy adversary. Any being who could enslave mankind for over a thousand years isn’t weak, I wanted to know how he did what he did and why. But you guys don’t ask those questions, you just dissmiss anything to do with him because you don’t like him.

Anyway I’ll give a piece of advice here, so you all better listen up because if you want to get anywhere in the long run, this is something you’ll want to adhere to as I do

Know yourself
Know your friends
Know your enemies
Know your world (as well as you are able to anyway)

The dissmissive attitude alot of people around here have of things ignores many of these rules that I try to follow, but hey I’m just some talking head on the internet, so you don’t have to do anything I say.

I’ve split this into its own topic so as to not derail Takeshiro’s thread about Navajo magick, taking it from this thread as defectron has helpfully quoted the posts preceding it. :slight_smile:

That’s an enormous assumption you’re making there, mate - speaking just for myself, you’re absolutely incorrect, because when I had the prophecy thing about mankind having to ascend to godlike status, I was told it was the Yahweh/Allah etc entity we would be basically at war with, and that it would destory the world if it wasn’t opposed - hell, I’ve referenced this in a lot of posts on here, including my recent post about theogenesis as a concept.

A lot of people here are in various levels of rebellion against this force, and given how often its writings and prophet urge obedience and submission, that’s as valid a reaction as any, though I prefer to dial it out completely in my own work.

What you’re saying here is kinda like, “The Mafia are a really powerful force and you’re all fools for not acknowledging that” when a lot of us have seen the damage done by this nasty little troll god, and want no part of it - it’s only acquired power through enslaving people, so your defence of it is really kind of playing its own game on its own terms.

You mention it enslaving people makiung it a worthy enemy - I call bullshit on the validity of any being that has to render its people mindlessly obedient because its rules and laws make no bloody sense, are inhumane, unliveable, and misogynist to a high degree, I prefer the Promethean spirits who gift mankind and want to draw up up to their level, not some psychotic little troll who’s set generations of decent people at war with their own bodies through suppressing sexuality and making relatively harmless things into “sins”, set them at war with their own emotions (in the case of homosexual men and women) and most of all, at war against each other in endless futile conflicts over faith. I want NOTHING of my power and divinity to be contaminated by such a despicable force!

Ye gods, it would be like trying to convince me that trafficking children into brothels is a high-paying game so I might as well forget my principles, and follow the money…

And don’t forget that it has single-handedly waged a war against magick and magicians across the ages in a totally unique way (NO other god from another pantheon had the same desire to lock down direct spiritual experience and get all the worship for itself), it’s got the blood of millions of innocent people on its hands, and has brought the world right now to the brink of something very terrible, so you might want to ask what it’s really playing at with you?

Maybe it’s giving you Scooby snacks for being a good boy and maybe even doing its bidding, but a lot of us are strongly opposed and for very serious, genuine and heartfelt reasons.

I also base my assertion of it being a worthy foe on my own personal experience as this spirit is one of the few i have faced that actually gave me a challenge when I fought against it.

I’m not condonging anything that Yaweh did in saying that, what I am saying is I aknowledge that what it did to the human race, as horrific as it was perhaps one of the greatest and most spectacularly evil uses of black magic in the history of the world. Same with aknowleging that in the early days of world war 2 at least before he got overconfident Hitler was a really good strategist. I am all for rebelling against this particular order as it’s nessecery for the human race to advance. So don’t confuse that with me condoning what it did.

The Christians did take crom the Pagan peoples so there is no telling what they discovered and used for themselves. =) some Ancient knowledge is powerful and terrible when one knows what one is looking at and how to use it.

Fair enough - actually I would argue (to go back to the core topic) that the good things we’ve experienced in the west are as a result of people turning their backs on Christianity at several major points, usually after a devastating plague caused whole populations to put their faith in trial - you see this is the fallout from the Black Death, that fundamentally changed British society and contrubuted to a greater amount of personal liberty, and later after Darwin’s theories caused people to place more faith in science than the teachings of some ancient book.

Naturally. The “building block” foundations of the West are built on that old pagan knowledge as well. I just fins the whole thing interesting. Naturally I dont need to join a FreeMasonic Order to even understand or practice their magick because I know its true foundations =)

Who is Lord of This world?

I think it’s King Belial.

Belial repreaents the Material World. You can believe what you want and do all the magick you want, but at the ejd if the day you still have ti face the material world… Which Belial represents.

I think it’s King Belial.[/quote]

Actually I think EA talked about this.
The spirit appears like a peacock or a bird.


I think it’s King Belial.[/quote]

Actually I think EA talked about this.
The spirit appears like a peacock or a bird.


Oh,then that would be Melek Taus.

Who comes from the Yazidi who S Connolly describes as some of the earliest daemonolaters,and Taus as one of the earliest demons.According to EA,that was an intense evocation,and it was only one.Really,though,he seems an entity worth investigating.

I would say that the “value” of a given magickal system rests in what one hopes to achieve by it. So, for example, if X system cannot produce wealth, it is a waste of time trying to use it to attain wealth. But, if it can help you afflict your enemies with cancer, then is not a waste of time for that purpose. I’m not saying that Navajo system is worthless in Plato’s World of the Forms or something like that; it just doesn’t seem to produce a life that I would even remotely want to have.

Yeah but the point is, you can’t judge anything about a system based just on face value variables.If I learned anything inthe occult, it’s that things are almost never two dimensional in why things do or don’t do the things they do. That’s why when I see people coming in here and making judgements about entities or systems just on a face value without actually doing any investigating it annoyes me. I mean I’ve said before I’m not here to help anyone, but when I just see people doing something over and over which I know probably isn’t a good idea it just kind of makes me want to say something about it.

I personally have not investigated the navajo spirits in great detail, though some native american spirits I have worked with proved to be quite powerful. But the point is, there might be other hidden reasons as to why the navajo are the way they are. As I mentioned before the more powerful areas of the world are predominantly christian. Although that god is strong, some gods that have more presence in these third world countries are stronger imo. So why the desparity? Well ask them yourself, or ask a third party spirit not directly associated with those spirits if you don’t trust their answers.

You point is well taken.

You could look at Haiti and ask, “if Voudon is so powerful, why is it such a poor country?” but IMO, you could also look at it and see the LOA as being the powers that hold it together. Haiti is the only country to have a successful slave revolt against a greater technological power, the French. It has also endured natural disasters that would have destroyed many other countries. If you were so inclined, you could say its very existence is because of the LOA.

I do not think you can judge the powers by local results. Western magicians have been obsessed with wealth for hundreds of years, yet none of the accounts of classical mages have them living in opulence. Does that negate the efficacy of Western magick as a whole? If it does, then why are we here wasting our time?

I think you have to look at the culture that is using the magick in context. The Navajo and other tribes used their magick to aid in successful hunts, and to bring down knowledge from the Otherworld to help the tribe. They probably also used it to wage war against their enemies. Sometimes they were successful. Like many situations, there are a great many variables that effect the outcome, and you can’t stand on the outside and make judgments as to the efficacy of something. What would the efficacy of your magick be against an army of white men armed with guns, that outnumber your tribe 5 to 1?

Darkestknight: like I said, the usefulness of a system is goal dependent. Maybe if someone wants wealth, magick isn’t a good use of time? Maybe they’d be better off learning a marketable skill? Or maybe it can be used as a way to give your endeavors a gentle nudge.

recently I was instructed that it was the jew’s fault for the genocide (haha wow) for before their involvement colonists got a long with tribes. I started to think about it at least a little bit seriously when I found out the chinese came to the americas first sans wastelands and violence…

Do you have any information regarding that? Btw… do you think the cute little jew cats could be responsible for a genocide? lol