Should Black Magick remain a Secret?

General Discussion
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I really think a certain amount of guidance and initiation is necessary for people to progress on their magical paths. Sure one can call down the source and experience the truth but most likely without the right guidance one is seriously going to fuck their shit up because they are going to learn things that they are not ready for.

When I experienced ego death for the first time I wanted to quit my job, become homeless and roam the earth endlessly because I felt like there was no point in anything. Luckily I had my head on straight and I didn’t make choices that would put me in a shitty situation further down the road but I’ve read and heard about others who weren’t so lucky and threw their lives away because they decided that it wasn’t worth it without putting to much thought into the repercussions. This is why I think some form of guidance or initiation is necessary because some people just can’t hack it.

When it comes to magick and the so called secrets you have to assume that nothing is true but everything is permitted because some of the stuff I’ve read that others would call initiation is only put there to hurt the foolish and ignorant. This is why it’s neccisary to educate yourself first instead of taking someone’s word for it and jumping straight in over your head.

Honestly, I think everyone should proceed with caution and careful planning. It doesn’t hurt to know the ins and outs before you jump. This has never done me wrong. Foolishness and lacking knowledge about the very thing your practicing will hurt you. That’s just my 2 cents.

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I never denied that, but I’m saying those are also heavily influenced by the human world in which they had to attempt to keep their traditions alive, and free from contamination, the kind that often turned the Xian church into an arm of the State in Europe - for example, this human influence on the world is the reason the spirits in some ATRs use saint’s names and images, something I don’t think they’d have decided to just randomly up and do that if there’d been no reason to hide.

But it’s not the spirits who’ve been suppressing magick in the past several centuries in the west.

What I don't think should be exposed are the secrets and gnosis that are attained by the people who have gone beyond the basics, except where it is passed on from those trying to help and teach younger (I mean in term of years practicing and amount of gnosis achieved) occultists.

I think a lot of that’s already out there though, if not all - it just takes having experienced it oneself to recognise it.

The Vedas, for example, meant different things to me the first time I began to study them, compared to 3, 5 or 10 years on - something I expect to keep happening as time progresses and new experiences and gnosis occur.

Other than that, I think we’re saying the same (or similar) things in different ways - what you call “witchblood,” I called “past life (or genetic/ancestral) inheritances,” I’ve already said (twice) that magickal power is innately self-limiting, and having had spirit-led intiations, I have first-hand knowledge of the fact the spirits (including various levels of our own selves) are what grant access to, and increase the power of, the student - not grades in some order, or anything else external.

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[quote=“Iam Incide, post:18, topic:5063”]I have to admit this is the kind of knowledge, specifically the “gnosis”, that I feel the most protective of out of respect for the sanctity of the knowledge.

… But I know I’m preaching to the choir here as some have acknowledged there are things they have learned that they maintain essential secrecy with. For me it comes back to the “pearls before swine” metaphor, one of the few things Christ allegedly said that I actually like. “Pearls” of wisdom indeed.[/quote]
For me, the only stuff I’ve been advised to keep secret refers to things I’m using in personal workings - everything else, “gnosis-wise” I share where possible, with the full approval of my spirits.

It’s this which has led me to draw the conclusion that the “observer effect” can adversely affect outcomes in a magickal working, since I’ve only ever been advised to stay silent on things that are currently still in play. :slight_smile:

If I felt I had some major gnosis about the nature of magick, or some spirit, or any other aspect and I failed to share that (as I’ve shared all my findings so far on things like the block-world theory, and various things about the nature of demons as I’ve experienced them, and working with what E.A. describes as becoming the “singularity,” etc.) then I’d be breaking my own personal covenant I undertook years ago - to facilitate the changes I saw prophecied in any way available to me.

Of course, the majority of what I’ve found to be most valuable and true was written by wiser and more dedicated people than myself, which is why a lot of my posts are about recommending books, teachers, or methods that I’ve found took me to where the person posting wishes to go.

But to refuse on sheer principle to “cast pearls before swine” is to arrogantly assume oneself to be the bearer of great treasures, while those who see them are the swine - a judgement call I don’t think I’d ever see fit to make, since, whenever I’ve done healing work (or any other kind where I interact with a person’s highest self, their guides, ancestors, etc.) the beauty and glory of the individual, no matter how “mundane” their life may seem, has blown me away.

Perhaps that Jesus bloke was having a “hidden meaning” moment there? :slight_smile:

Pearls contain calcium carbonate and a few other valuable trace minerals, and those wise little piggies would undoubtedly chomp them down and reap the health benefits - humans, meanwhile, simply murder millions of oysters each year so they can deck themselves with expensive and beautiful jewellery that does nothing other than serve as a peculiar status symbol to other humans.

(I know this, I wear pearls every day for precisely that reason!)

There’s a strong comparison there between the human who acquires status through having knowledge they display, but then refuse to share, compared to kind of chumming the waters by putting it all out there and letting the “swine” make of it what they will.

For more info, [url=http://eatpearls.com/]http://eatpearls.com/[/url] ;o)


Edit to add: a question.

How many of us here, if someone uploaded documents that purportedly contained detailed descriptions of the very highest level of wisdom possessed by some secret closed order we believe to be legit, and various words and tools of power given only to initiates of that order, would refuse to download and read those documents on the basis of some of the arguments you yourself have made in this thread?

Honest answers only! :)

I'd have them, UNLESS my spirits expressly said no - that would be the ONLY reason.

Who, on here, can honestly say they'd do otherwise?
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I wouldn’t read them. And I’m being honest here. They probably wouldn’t even benefit be anyway.

And I agree, I don’t really think we are disagreeing on a lot of things here.

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There are things that “are not openly spoken of by humans,” and “have been generally dropped from openly published literature for the past 300 years,” although even those barriers are being stampeded over these days. However, there is no such thing as information which is or even can be exclusively held and/or reserved to a small group of human people. I have yet to have a single “secret” revealed to me that I didn’t almost immediately find either tacit or explicit in a number of very old books that everyone just overlooked.

Also, the “spirits” are–let’s say “celestial”— energies channelled into a mask of what the old magicians would call Air. It is they who are created by you and they are wholly subject to you. They can and will perform on demand as long as you know how to get them the access they need. A spirit demanding up-front service or payment should be considered extremely suspect, and you shouldn’t work with any spirit that starts spitting out terms and conditions when you ask for proof of ability. There’s a lot of astral junk out there trying to pass itself off as Jesus, Satan, and your dead Aunt Gretchen. That’s literally why talismanic grimoires were published (and also why people were burned for being caught with them).

Humans who think they can stop a “family” of spirits from initiating outsiders are absolutely deluding themselves. Even if someone can’t access YOUR particular mask, another mask of the same energy will give them everything.

If you are tricked into taking a subservient attitude toward spirits, you are going to get eaten alive. The only thing worthy of your allegiance is that Source who demands no allegiance and issues no commandments, but gives all things openly to its creation that we may live and thrive and become as it is.

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Absolutely I would download and save this information before it was discovered and removed. Their “sacred knowledge” becomes my ammunition at that point that I can add to my arsenal. Their folly, slip up, security lapse or whatever you want to call it becomes my advantage and if I am capable of understanding the information and find it useful or meaningful their “gnosis” is information that just enhanced and furthered my occult education. I think what we have are just two different attitudes and philosophies based on who we are as individuals. Again, my attitude and approach is more competitive than cooperative and I embrace more of a Darwinian survival of the fittest philosophy than a necessarily humanitarian one. I tend towards the more masculine dynamic where the superior element dominates and rises over the inferior element, which is in accordance with the laws of nature. The “share with the world” philosophy is rooted in the more feminine aspect of human nature, that part that wants to heal the world and have us all holding hands singing kumbaya as one giant rainbow family living in some global utopia that I don’t think is realistic or even desirable or healthy for our maximum progression as a race.

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[quote=“Lady Eva, post:23, topic:5063”]Edit to add: a question.

How many of us here, if someone uploaded documents that purportedly contained detailed descriptions of the very highest level of wisdom possessed by some secret closed order we believe to be legit, and various words and tools of power given only to initiates of that order, would refuse to download and read those documents on the basis of some of the arguments you yourself have made in this thread?

Honest answers only! :slight_smile:

I’d have them, UNLESS my spirits expressly said no - that would be the ONLY reason.

Who, on here, can honestly say they’d do otherwise?[/quote]

Hey there, jumping into this discussion late.

I unfortunately don’t have a lot of experience with groups/lodges/orders/fraternities/societies and I have some difficulty answering the question pertaining to what I would do if I were given access to vast occult knowledge not yet known to the larger world outside the order.

On one hand, if I voluntarily join an order and thereby swear to keep secret everything as a condition of me being a member and I agree to that, I would do my best to keep those secrets even though they may benefit the world as a whole.

Still, I would have some serious conversations with everyone as to why this has to be kept secret. Then again, this may be one of the reasons I would not join the order as I agree with E.A. that sharing certain occult knowledge with the world has more benefits than negatives.

I think a lot of benefits we reap from E.A. and other’s works has been a result of various people making that personal choice to divulge information in some way that they were originally held to keep secret. I think the only serious threat this has created is 1) if the information was incorrect in some way you can seriously mislead people and get them down the wrong path, and 2) you obviously create for yourself additional enemies in life if you choose to divulge things they want kept secret.

If you guys will recall there is that well known Magick of Solomon dvd by Poke Runyon and I remember him saying in the video that one of the primary reasons for him doing the video was because some of his past students have went out and told the world the stuff they learned under his care and ALSO gave people misleading information. That’s according to Poke.

Most of the secret divulging seems to be of the human-sharing kind. I don’t see to many people revealing things that seem to come from spirits/gods/intelligences that were not supposed to be revealed. Most spirits have the ability to know ahead of time what you are going to do with the help/information they give you as they experience time differently than we do. So can a spirit evoked entrust a magician with something they do not want revealed knowing that this particular magician will do it anyway?

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Absolutely I would download and save this information before it was discovered and removed. Their “sacred knowledge” becomes my ammunition at that point that I can add to my arsenal. Their folly, slip up, security lapse or whatever you want to call it becomes my advantage and if I am capable of understanding the information and find it useful or meaningful their “gnosis” is information that just enhanced and furthered my occult education. I think what we have are just two different attitudes and philosophies based on who we are as individuals. Again, my attitude and approach is more competitive than cooperative and I embrace more of a Darwinian survival of the fittest philosophy than a necessarily humanitarian one. I tend towards the more masculine dynamic where the superior element dominates and rises over the inferior element, which is in accordance with the laws of nature. The “share with the world” philosophy is rooted in the more feminine aspect of human nature, that part that wants to heal the world and have us all holding hands singing kumbaya as one giant rainbow family living in some global utopia that I don’t think is realistic or even desirable or healthy for our maximum progression as a race.[/quote]

This is actually demonstrating what I’m talking about. Those “secrets” are being delivered to YOU because YOU have access to them in YOUR reality. Other people in other realities still don’t have access because they’re plugged into someone else’s “system.” The arrival of this information is an indication of how far along you are in breaking off from the false collective reality and becoming the Operator. The calibration of the reality you’re currently living in determines what’s possible from moment to moment.

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I’m laughing so very hard at that image - if you think that’s where I’m coming from, then dude, dream on. :wink:

The fact is the image of masculinity you seem to hold there - eternally taking, smacking anyone who dares try to have the same as you - is stuck in perpetual needy-grabby infanthood, eager for the teat in his mouth and damn the world - instead of the truly mature, secure and developed masculine whose seat of authority is that he provides for the family and community (as hunter, father, shaman, or king) - oral sadism, I think Freud called it, the desire to consume even at the cost (in fact, ideally at the cost) of all others.

Now, does this personal evaluation/put-down psychobabble malarkey serve the conversation, and the wider topic? :wink:

Much as I could indulge in it all day, beyond batting your grotesque caricature of me right back atcha :o) I think it comes down to the fact that as well as being masculine and feminine (and ideally having had experience of both polarities, even though we may - as I do - prefer to adhere to one) we are also magicians, and therefore we have our own values, and desired outcomes.

We’ve already risked the threat of damnation prevalent in most religions against our practices, and the threat of ridicule or insanity from the materialist world, after all, in order to mpursue those values.

One of mine is to reshape the world the way I want it to be, not “saving it” - simply tidying it up a bit, and making some adjustments. :wink:

In pursuit of that goal I’m willing to do a large range of things, many of them questionable, and I appreciate anyone who lays out material that helps me with this. Going to what Sultitan_Itan said, when these things appear in my reality, I take it as affirmation that I’m on the right course of action.

I don’t know a single black magician who doesn’t share that goal of shaping the world in accordance with their will, which is why I think there’s an element of hypocrisy creeping in for a lot of us when we claim to be too precious about this stuff, because in the end we’re all here for power, and while some of us (I’m referring to Euoi’s statement of not downloading that hypothetical material) may decide we gain more power from upholding our values, the internal motivation remains the same. Power is its own justification.

VERY good point - it goes right back to my theorties about observer effect, and that intent to release information later on may affect some workings ahead of time. That would be the one guideline I wouldn’t break, not because I’m at the beck and call of my spirits but because I trust their guidance, having both ignored it (to my cost) and followed it, to my benefit, in the past.

Most spirits have the ability to know ahead of time what you are going to do with the help/information they give you as they experience time differently than we do. So can a spirit evoked entrust a magician with something they do not want revealed knowing that this particular magician will do it anyway?

It’s been my own experience that spirits of all kinds are as damned sick of the larger status quo (I’m not talking about ATR & similar initiatory groups, who are at least doing the work in direct contact with spirits) so I can totally see many of them sharing stuff with the types of people they trust to upset the applecart a bit.

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[quote=“Lady Eva, post:29, topic:5063”]I’m laughing so very hard at that image - if you think that’s where I’m coming from, then dude, dream on. :wink:

The fact is the image of masculinity you seem to hold there - eternally taking, smacking anyone who dares try to have the same as you - is stuck in perpetual needy-grabby infanthood, eager for the teat in his mouth and damn the world - instead of the truly mature, secure and developed masculine whose seat of authority is that he provides for the family and community (as hunter, father, shaman, or king) - oral sadism, I think Freud called it, the desire to consume even at the cost (in fact, ideally at the cost) of all others.[/quote]

If it’s any consolation I suspected anyone who did work from the Ernst Holmes book couldn’t be TOO fluffy. :wink: I can understand why you, in turn, probably see me on the other extreme through some of my posts but I actually don’t disagree with your definition of masculinity. However, I don’t think Machiavellian drive and being a provider and of service are necessarily mutually exclusive. Anyhow, don’t take my sometimes brash way of putting things too personally. I actually quite enjoy most of your posts and think you are extremely intelligent, which is a trait I respect the most in any individual.

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It’s my opinion that the work with most value for human evolution is that which appeals to and can be adopted by any person, no matter their everyday gender identity, emotional maturity, or personal quirks and weaknesses… that’s where religion, which can be prescriptive of the types of personality who will thrive (ascetic, selfless, self-negating) falls down compared to magick.

Magick IMO will, through the self-limiting factor described further up, lead a person slowly towards growth in order for them to get what they want, whereas religion often tells them they’re outright fucked unless they become hypocrites who superficially comply whilst fearing to simply be who they truly are.

We’ve all as magicians made that choice to impose our internal subjective reality on our own - and other people’s - external objective reality, so where we draw the line with ethics over, for example, disclosure or adoption of some other group’s secrets comes from where we feel the most power lies.

Sultitan_Itan makes a good point: “The arrival of this information is an indication of how far along you are in breaking off from the false collective reality and becoming the Operator.”

This is the area I’m currently most interested in (and why I did the Personal Daemon work from Schertel’s book btw - to distil and therefore be able to fully merge with my masculine polarity when required) and to be honest anything that gets me there is fair game, and I only listen to advice from my spirits because they’ve consistantly proven their wisdom as being helpful.

Even if, as my partner firmly believes, they’re offshoots of my own subconscious, you can’t argue with results.

And this goes back to the original topic - most of what we know as magick is a result of someone blabbing, or at least having the guts to break the fear-based grip of religious dogma against magickal activity, and put stuff out there that violates the supposed law of God.

Blessed be the lawbreakers, the oath-breakers (warlocks) and the thieves, for they have provided for us and given us the fertile ground in which we blossom!

(Perhaps no coincidence that Mercury & Hermes, the great Lords of Magick, are also gods of thieves? lol!!)

^ This, over and over and over… :slight_smile:

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[quote=“Lady Eva, post:23, topic:5063”]Edit to add: a question.

How many of us here, if someone uploaded documents that purportedly contained detailed descriptions of the very highest level of wisdom possessed by some secret closed order we believe to be legit, and various words and tools of power given only to initiates of that order, would refuse to download and read those documents on the basis of some of the arguments you yourself have made in this thread?

Honest answers only! :slight_smile:

I’d have them, UNLESS my spirits expressly said no - that would be the ONLY reason.

Who, on here, can honestly say they’d do otherwise?[/quote]

Well, all I can say is, for me, when I came to this forum I knew nothing about the nature of spirits. The way one should react when in the presence of a spirit or what not to emphasis before a spirit because of their ability to feed off of what your consciousness projects. All this once hidden secret workings, I deduce from watching occult videos, reading occult newsletters, forum post and books like crazy.

Some on this forum have shared their personal experience with various spirits and some here have also quoted philosophy or foresight that their OWN personal Daemon have shared with them. That to me is the most unselfish act humans with magickal powers can do for US beginners.

I know I don’t know much about evocation, ritual and demonology like most of you, but one thing I do know and that’s when I summoned my first entity who interacted with me, I know that initial working was because I put to work what I so diligently learn from other people. Not any spirit. So if the individual can apply him or her self to the knowledge that someone else is so kind to share, then what is so bad about giving those who are so incline that choice to resurrect that innate power which is just temporarily veil from them. Then maybe later on that same person can now share some of what they learn from their Personal Daemon to a new crop of aspirants. And on and on it goes.

After all isn’t that what we and All the spirits want. One cosmos of empowered Beings who wield the power of god/desshood.

In the Serpent in the Sky: The High Wisdom of Ancient Egypt, the author John Anthony West, said, “Information alone is useless, unless it is transformed into understanding.” This is so true. The Black Magickian can reveal all the secrets they want, but if the individual can’t see beyond the black ink on white paper, then the statement… 'DON’T GO NEAR THE WATER UNTIL YOU KNOW HOW TO SWIM” would have people like me on my knees begging for some divine intervention.

I’m not saying we should all become blabber mouth on the roof tops. And I know from personal experience that if spirit seek you out and reveal to you working that, that said spirit wants you to do in order to achieve a certain kind of success, must remain secret with you, unless of course, that spirit doesn’t mine you discerning.

The little I know, when I share it with other family and friends, it’s welcome and it pushes them to did deeper. kind of pay it forward.

So with that said, thanks to all who say, ‘Fuck You’ to the verboten culture that once existed. And I say praise to all who continue to share their expertise and wealth of esoteric know how so aspirant like me can finally be awaken to the godhood of our true nature.

To answer the question posed by Lady Eva… Hell yes.

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