I have seen and read some things that have made me reconsider a lot of the people I allow to teach me. the main thing is the thought that they will ever be higher than those they work with. for magick to truly progress past some superficial shit you need to let go if this ego of a “living god” when you work with them. if you want power then come as a supplicant. come to worship. come with love. sure we all have the spark of divinity within us but compared to those above and greater we a still swine in comparison and we need to remember that. you cannot order these spirits around and freely take from their tables because, in the end, you WILL PAY. this shit is not a video game folks. do not be so arrogant as to ever call yourself a master of whatever system you belong to because if you truly think that your human mind can hold all the secrets of divinity within this short lifespan we have on Malkuth, you are a damn fool. do not think you are above worship, do not think you are above weeping and placating yourself in front of a shrine to the gods you claim to love. because if you come to this path with arrogance you will be broken down.
dont even fuckin come at me about this Timothy
I certainly agree with some of this; I believe that worship gets a lot more stick than it deserves. There’s nothing inherently wrong with finding a deity that clicks with you and seeking it’s aid and approval through hard work, reverence and other actions said deity approves of.
As far as being a master goes, I’d have to disagree. Mastering a system is the process of learning to understand it on a fundamental level: reaching the point where the energy is so intertwined with your being that you do not need to memorise vast swathes of knowledge because the processes that makes said rituals and concepts work comes as naturally to you as breathing. You do not think to breathe, just as a master does not need to think to draw on knowledge relating to his system.
That being said, most people move from system to system far to quickly to ever come close to mastering one. Mastery takes dedication to a single path, immersing yourself fully.
I also have to disagree on materialistic and superficial goes being some how inherently less than purely spiritual goals. You can be as enlightened as you like, but that doesn’t mean much in the physical world ie. The world that matters most.
I don’t agree with worship but I do agree with where you are going with this. Lucifer himself has instructed me to bow to no one not even himself.
But I do respect each spirit and am generous even when I’m not seeking something. I don’t consider it business either. A friendship perhaps or an extension of family. I treat them well and in return I am treated very well and favored.
I disagree that we are gods though the potential COULD be there. But arrogance and ego stand in the way of that as it tends to do. It’s been roughly two years since I last cast a spell - I use the knowledge passed onto me through spirits and have the ability to draw on it when needed. But I understand I have not “ mastered” anything. I may be able to acquire what I want or need fairly easily but that’s about it. There is a plethora of knowledge I’ve yet to obtain.
Most people are satisfied having their requests heard and granted but being mentored by and taking in as much knowledge as possible tends to fall by the wayside. I could spend my entire life being mentored by a spirit and still not master everything about them. That would place me above them and I believe that is impossible.
Now in human form I believe we are at an advantage because we can learn from multiple sources: angels, demons, lwa, orisha, fey, etc. We have unlimited resources and more than enough to occupy our time here on earth. But these are ancient spirits and I don’t believe we could ever know everything about them.
well, that’s E.A’s thing. I think one should always respect the spirit/divinity. In many ways E.A marketed his product something which is completely opposite of Christianity or other GOD fearing religion, the ‘I COME FIRST’ ideology of his. A knee jerk reaction to ‘Fear God or Burn in Hell for Eternity’ slogan.
I think once U mature A bit both the basic respect to spirits AND seeing through the ‘My GOD or Hell’ claim comes naturally.
i see. my patron demands abasement/humbleness so
Nothing is higher or lower.
“I am no ones King but i am without a Master” Belial
Nope Nope Nope.
This is your dogma not everyone’s, and yes this is fear mongering dogma. No Spirit I’ve worked with or spoken too feels we are their servants, beneath them or “Swine” and any who ever said that to me i would not work with. This is a relationship and a betterment for both parties not a Master or Servant thing.
Thanks for the Christian fire and brimstone speech, it was funny.
This whole post is preaching so i’ll let @Lady_Eva decide further.
i never said that they think we are swine. COMPARED to their power and knowledge we might as well be
i will humor you slightly…
More than one of them has said we have the advantage of Ascending, of reincarnating, of pushing ourselves higher than we are. They can evolve with us but otherwise are somewhat stagnant.
Not my fault you don’t want to follow rules and preach bro
The thing is, any relationship is a deeply personal thing. I’ve encountered spirits who require more than others, but in return they give more. I’m needy and can be overly familiar. I’ve yet to be able to work with any spirit I can’t be myself with. To me it’s more about building a relationship and getting to know as much about them as they are willing to share.
They become my friends and later feel like family. The material tends to just fall in line once you open yourself and truly embrace and APPLY what they so generously teach you. Admittedly growing up Catholic the word worship leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I freely give my affection and time and it is returned 10×. Time and a willingness to learn are the most precious things you can give.
Your squish suit comes with an expiration date, our time here is limited. Opening your mind means a constant cycle of death and rebirth, battling your ego and never getting so attached to an idea that you believe it to be without reproach or immutable.
I don’t believe in being abusive, though I wouldn’t put up with being abused either. Generally I’ve found that spirits will mirror the way you treat them, though they are giving in ways most humans are incapable of.
I’ve noticed a sort of intellectual elitism in Pagan and esoteric groups. The sort of “I know this better than you” attitude. My friend, who’s a Chaos magician, says esoteric groups are over glorified book clubs, and it seems like he’s right to an extent. I’ve been to a few rag tag Pagan groups here in NJ, and they’ve been underwhelming. It’s just people discussing books and philosophies as opposed to how to apply them. You’re fucked if you don’t know what this or that means, though. I like to learn, to analyze, and to interpret, but I’d like to do more. And I’d like to do it without feeling judged by some soccer mom who manages an Aldiz. Even a church congregation is a glorified book club, but at least they are more active in their community. For one, I think an Asatru organization for community service would be interesting. Perhaps an all Asatru militia against police brutality.
Consider this: if you were given conscious control of how your own liver works, you’d find it a full time job and probably fuck it up and end up ill or dead.
Same if you had to be a shark for five hours or a bat.
Everything that exists excels at being itself, nothing more, nothing less, so if anything truly below, or above, in the way you mean/
Could Belial really handle having sick parents, 2 special needs kids and a third who’s started taking drugs because of their friends, a boss who only ever criticises, and his car breaking down on the way to work?
Humans handle this shit all the time and manage to remain functional within the remit of what it means to BE human.
LOL, thinking of starting a forum called – ‘’ Becoming a functioning human first ‘’ . BAFHF.
Believe me, many need that kind of guidance also.
Worship is honoring a deity and giving homage to that spirit. Many respect noble ideas or desires and some less noble. Setting your own rules or code isn’t disrepect or arrogance.
It is up to the deity to decide whether to accede or not to various castings. A deity does not expect servitude, blind obediance or observance. Show respect and you will not be enslaved but enlightened and gain the knowledge to over come your adversaries and to success in business and life.
The irony here is not lost on me: The OP has arrogance through every tine.
Sure, You can grovel and worship if you like, I’m suspicious of any entity that ask for this - it’s much too human and of-the-Earth. I would automatically treat it as a trickster or lesser entity and dismiss it.
Respect though, it’s a thing. I value it VERY highly, and it is earned… both ways. An entity like this loses the possibility of my respect out of the gate.
There’s a MASSIVE difference between being humble, which I think is a good thing, and abasing yourself, which is giving away your power and absolutely unforgivable.
I walk my talk too - I don’t accept submission or worship for the same reasons I don’t give it, and I will teach those trying to fawn to me to respect themselves first. How CAN I respect them if they don’t respect themselves enough to stand in their power? How could an entity respect me if I don’t do the same? Standing in our power is the entire reason we exist, to be sovereign and free willed. To give that up gives away the reason to exist.
Don’t really see where ‘placating’ comes in either - you can’t be responsible for oter people’s emotions, so if you piss someone off, that’s on them not you. How dare they make you pay for their feels? This is again a low-vibrational pattern and highly suspect. if I did someone bad I’ll apologise as I should. After that, you do a deal or you don’t. There’s no reason to whine and wheedle, they’re not that fussed about what we think.
You could do with learning how to respect and be respected OP, imo.
Yeah, starting with that equally-arrogant patron of yours who’s playing you like a lute.
Well, your patron never demanded anything from me except studying. Yea he can be a pain if you slack on your studies, you’ll end up listening him scolding you a lot, but he never demanded to be worshiped. I’m afraid that’s all you. He merely picked up what you want and he gives you exactly that. It’s common among all entities. Better luck next time?
To no-one in particular/everyone in general:
I know there’s some heated language in the OP but just a friendly request to debate the topic, not the person, we’re all trying to figure things out, so please go easy on trying to share what you believe, people tend to close down when attacked which stfiles debate.
We all believe certain things. Are we to stifle our thoughts just because there might be a snowflake in the crowd? Or is it just certain trains of belief that must not be spoken of here?
That’s kinda harsh, none of us really fit in anywhere . A forum of black magicans can find better things to do than label someone.
We are all at different places on our journey, a few years ago I felt much like the OP does. It was only through working with Azazel and most of the goetia that I moved past this and into a phase of discovering my God self.
I wasn’t referring to anyone on this thread, but the censorship in general. Sorry you misunderstood.