Probably not making any friends here, but

While this is true, I still feel that evocation should not be the first step one takes in magic. I know its not a popular opinion here, but evocation IS widely considered an (relatively) advanced technique for a reason. Couple of months of meditation, candle magic and some type of divination at the start would make most beginners far less frustrated and prone to “exaggerating” their results.


But again it comes down to individual experience being different, I’ll quote the first part of my core shamanism tutorial (anyone seeing this post who wants it, PM me with the subject line “Tutorial”):

I’ve seen absolute beginners who’d never had a psychic experience in their lives go from nervous and skeptical on the Saturday morning, sitting in a circle in a roomful of strangers, to confidently locating and describing past events or spiritually significant things for those same people by the Sunday afternoon.

So for my part, I would honestly like to see people do that first, because it fulfils the role of divination, in that you get a spirit animal mentor who can give simple yes/no answers very fast, it’s as safe as magick gets, and it also develops your senses in the same immersive manner that going to a foreign country helps a language student.

It also, and this is key to the kinds of people who join here, gives RAPID gratification and even advances the person within a short period to answers they need, energy healing experiences to fix parasites and energy loss, etc.

Afaik, insofar as there is a recommended order for BALG’s “Mastering” courses, the divination one is first, which differs from my own honest assessment of how to practice, although i see the logic behind it.

But I know if I was honestly expected to master Tarot before I could call a single spirit, i would be out there with the greater mass of mugglehood :stuck_out_tongue: rather than confidently calling up major demons and interacting with gods on the reg. :thinking:


Absolutely not. Again, I have never been anything but kind and respectful to beginners, and I respect the forum enough to move on without fuss when I sniff out poop. I am saying that sometimes bullshit is obvious. If you can’t figure that one then I have a bridge in New York to sell you.

I am saying that it is poisoning our community to just nod and smile at every story. Maybe the person is crazy, delusional, or a troll. All three are not doing the community at large any good. I don’t determine standards of reality for anyone, nor would I wish to, but at the same time I cannot stand being lied to or taken for a fool. Do you? You might be amazed at what I find believable, so when I say I call BS on some things just try to appreciate that it is because it has tested the utter limits of my tolerance and open mind. C’mon, can you honestly tell me you don’t read some posts and just shake your head?

Why? What if I am wrong? Not my problem, not my job. This rant of mine was more a call to filter the BS and get some magick going. I am trying to encourage people who want to do the work and discourage people who might not know any better to avoid potential hazzards; if you wish to defend the other end of that spectrum then that is your freedom. I just choose not to. No hard feelings. That is why I chose to make this general post, as opposed to direct confrontation or Gestapo flagging.

I do see what you mean, but again; this is not a call to bash beginners. I can still maintain a fair disposition in the face of opposition; if others cannot that is hardly on me. I should keep silent because others cannot discern? What could possibly go wrong with rejecting or motivating lazy practitioners and pointing out that some people are full of crap? I at no point advocated directly confronting anyone in the manner you suggest. If someone is that rude and irresponsible I hardly see how their misinterpretation of my words is my wrongdoing.

I agree. If I were in your position I would not tolerate that kind of crap either. Again, I am more or less just touting the merits of hard work in this field, and the importance of guarding the gates of our minds. I did not advocate for the open season on anyone who anyone else feels is not being honest. And it was also a non specific red flag to potential trolls and time wasters. Again, treat my words like a firearm. My words have their use, but the onus is on who hears it in regards to how they are used. As the manufacturer it is hardly my responsibility.

Who said anything about deserving? We all deserve it if the intent for ascendance if there, regardless of experience. But, whether you go to your grandma for driving lessons or Mario Andredi, the basics are probably going to be quite similar. The difference becomes obvious with later lessons.

Yeah, I get that, but how would the said beginner know they were even communicating with such amazing tutors? See, this is what I am talking about. I can lie. So can spirits. If you can’t tell if you are talking to Amaymon then the thing posing as Amaymon could lead you FAR astray. How do I know this? Experience. See what I mean?

And I state again, how does one with no foundation even know it is a great King with whom they speak? I am not speaking for them; I am advocating for people to at least make sure it is them with which they speak. Can you find no value in this logic? Can you find any great fault? I really do care, so I kind of have an internal ethic which compels me to speak when someone could bring great harm to themselves needlessly. It is kind of a ‘weighing the feather against your heart’ situation. It is the same reason I will argue with a friend until I am blue in the face as to why they should not go on a joy ride while they are blackout pissed.

100%? I would say nobody. 99%? Many of us. If I watch 99 people jump off a three story building and shatter their legs, why would I think the 100th person is going to jump and fly away with no problems at all? I have seen with my own eyes what can happen when someone FUBARs in matters spiritual, so forgive me if I have no desire to watch more people get hurt for no better reason then ‘who am I to impede’?

I do, that is why I saved my angst for this very general thread. Not one name has been mentioned.

At what point did I even mention beginners? I see the ones in opposition of my sentiments keep bringing this up. I said LARPers and laziness. Trolls. By all means ask any King you wish what their thoughts on that are, and get back to me. I can tell you that from my own experiences that they have little use for either beyond the role of pawn or plaything.


Fair enough. On that note I now have to bite my tongue. Not to you, @Lady_Eva, as you saw fit to engage in intelligent discourse. The individual who resorts to 'lmfao’s and sexuality digs to avoid any kind of actual reply.

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I mentioned beginners or rather “newbies” at some point, due to a repeating pattern I’ve seen offline. Sorry about that.
Actually online too with some people I know from other forums.

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Interesting how many feathers get riled here. Also interesting how nobody got quite so pissed at this topic:

Or this:

Or this:

Or this:



Okay that my friend is where you are DEAD wrong - this software is designed to permit people to have a democratic piece of the pie on moderation, by flagging posts that seem intended to simply disrupt the community.

This is why 3 flags will hide a post - this is the literal intention of the creators of the software.

You can call it Gestapo, but that’s just a form of reductio ad Hitlerum - if you care enough about the community to make this post, which from the subject line you seem to have not expected to be popular (in fact it attracted many likes), then you can manage to hit a flag and ask Staff to take a look at a post, see if they smell anything.

I read all posts on here, but obviously not right away, and flags bump a post to the very top of my list. So, that’s flagging explained, there are many people on here who do totally grok the member-moderation process and it is actually working pretty well, if you choose to opt out now that I’ve explained hopw it works, that’s your choice to make. :smiley:

Going to that analogy, I contend that in the absence of demonic Kings saying “Stahp with all the damned newbies!” their experience and power, plus legions of servitors and familairs, make pointing a newbie at them very acceptable. Can we agree to disagree on that for now, and maybe formulate some check-in work with a few people taking part to get their say on this?

Personally, I think that the fact demonic Kings are among the driving forces behind BALG answers this, but we could still chase that up to get veriification.

But even a lower entity, when summoned, could be an imposter, calling spirits with a seal and keep doing the work until you can perceive them signing their name seems to be the most reliable method.

None of these things require the student to step away from one class of beings, though, the same pitfalls await when calling almost any spirit.

I get that, that’s why I want to try and take this somewhere constructive. :+1:

Where do YOU want to go with this?

Wjat do YOU see as a way the community can create something to help people not run into pitfalls?

As I said, calling a problem out is one side of things, coming up with solutions is the harder part.

Not your job you say?

Fine, but some other people may wish to contribute. I’m currently of a mind to make a post in the New Member resources thread all new signups hget a PM link to, and make that post wiki, so that peoplke can edit it to add tutorials and posts they personally would like to see beginners reading, and include the replies I made above awbout benchmarking and core shamanism for example to this.

You’re never going to succeed in slapping the sigil and the razor out of the hands of the kid who just got dumped and wants to sell his soul to get some spotty teenager back in his pants, BUT, we can provide kind of flowcharts for people to avoid the pitfalls and to find the best way to study, right? :thinking:

Speaking for myself, I find Asbjorn’s model of spirits to be so substantially different to my own that I don’t bother arguing points which come down to honest differences of experience, and of constructs of reality - we share a passion for the concepts in The Kybalion afaik but our views on the point at which spirits are “real” seems to vary.

And I did invite both him personally and people who share his views to debate me on some questions about this, but that didn’t go anywhere.

I have a similar difference of opinion with a member called The Cusp but he also does some great work that I recommend, so I’m not inclined to thrash that out to a last-man-standing scenario about who’s more right - I take what works, and move on.

I did disagree strongly on Asbjorn’s thread calling for “unity,” but that debate kind of fizzled out…


Wow, this thread just exploded while I was asleep. I think the thing is if someone believes they had an experience, truly believes it, then who is anyone else to say it didn’t happen. For all we know this may be a way of getting people really into it in the first place and getting rid of those who won’t do the work after by making it harder. You know the old trail of breadcrumbs. Eventually you get there but if you don’t have a breadcrumb for a while you can either give up or keep searching. It’s the people who keep searching who are worth the effort. If you believe something that’s fine, I may not but it’s not for me to say it’s BS just because I don’t agree. There are those on here who say just because EA was the first one to talk about entities like Ladilok that he “invented” them and they aren’t real. I am pretty sure there are more entities out there than the ones we currently have names for. These are just the famous ones. Anyone know who William Kidd and Henry Avery are? Any of the names of the other captains in Christopher Columbus’s fleet? His first mate? Navigator? See my point? They might be there we just haven’t heard. Who has heard of Reggie Dwight? Pretty sure most here would have but not by that name.


Everybody! Some people had to train for years and years in order to get a decent singing voice. Others have naturally had a decent or even a great singing voice from a very young age with even less effort. It would not make sense for those singers that had to work longer at it to envy or resent the prodigies.

Take Kim Kardashian, for instance. A lot of people seem to resent her for being famous “for nothing” or “effortlessly” when many hard-working people struggle to make ends meet. Everybody has their own beauty, but Kardashian is just STUNNING! Supermodel stunning! That’s a natural gift she has.

And I do believe she worked a lot harder than people think to have reached such a high level of fame. The reality TV shows (long hours of shooting, the acting element), the constant dieting and excersising, all the modelling, the entrepreneurship… That’s a lot of work! That’s why I don’t get all that jealousy or envy.

Now, back to the matter at hand… Some people are just that gifted! It’s not at all hard to believe a teenager may have a strong intuition and easily make contact and converse with entities even though they did not study much! If serious about their craft, they’ll wanna keep learning, and they may end up reading a lot, but they may just have that natural ability for things.

It is not my job to determine if online posters are lying or not. I, by default, choose to believe stories that are posted (though I know it may not all be true), and I learn from them. If a newbie with little knowledge makes contact and experiences great success, then it’s just wonderful! It’s then up to them to choose to study/practise more or not. Either way, I am not at all bothered or frustrated. If anything, it encourages me knowing success is possible.


FYI William Kidd was Captain Kidd, both he and Henry Avery were famous pirates/privateers. (It depends which flag you flew under as to how you saw them in a lot of cases). I have no idea about Columbus. Reggie Dwight is better known as Sir Reginald Dwight, but better still by his stage name of Elton John


Just a little correction… His full legal name is Sir Elton Hercules John as he legally changed it and made it his real name. (The name change to Elton Hercules John was made official on January 7th, 1972.)

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As always, I must bow to your wisdom.


LARPERs and laziness.

I get that, but like I said, what if I am wrong? If someone really does need help I do not want to be a factor in denying them. Also, IMO democracy is one of the most insidious methods of control and subjugation ever devised, so I tend to shy from anything requiring my involvement with a democratic process.

I cannot agree to disagree, because I am lost as to what is disagreed upon. I never said anything bad about newbies. LARPERs and laziness, LARPERs and laziness, LARPERs and laziness.

Nothing wrong with being new; we all were, and are still in a sort of way, every one of us. Newbies are fine, and there is no such thing as a silly question provided the person asking it genuinely wants to learn.

LARPers and laziness, lol…

A decent point. On that same token, though, would it not be beneficial to know how to make it go away if you were able to discern it being false? Of course we all have to learn and make mistakes, but there is a difference between spreading your wings and chopping them off because you don’t know how to use them.

Like I said, I feel the best course of action would be to do more magick. More practice. More exploration. More experiences. Then we would have no shortage of discussions that move in a constructive direction. Lip service and living seldom go hand in hand.

A damn fine idea! Let’s do it. I call for a thread dedicated to King Paimon. If someone new is going to disregard fundamentals I have found Him to be willing to watch their back more than many. He has saved my ass more than once.

Which is exactly why I advocate for more experienced practitioners to ladle their advice carefully. We would not want someone’s advice to lead to a suicide and have it come back on BALG, would we? You said it to me yourself just last week. I had made an extremely brash statement which could have led to trouble for others, and you pointed that out. And thank you for doing so, btw.

I feel the same way, but I was using his posts as a base line example. Even when those who did not agree with him commented, they did so without calling him ‘smug’ or making sexual references in place of an actual argument. Possibly because of status, or do I just rub people the wrong way?

And honestly, I am surprised more people did not get pissed at this post, but at the same time I really don’t see a single person commenting on my OP that falls into either group I was criticizing, whether I agree with them or not. Anyone I was indirectly referring to has not touched this thread. Something to that?


Impossible to verify without knowing who they are though, which is strange territory to get into. :thinking:


Yeah I think if you aren’t serious you would be like “meh, I don’t care anyway”. Whereas if you do and you’re newish you’re kind of like “oh shit, did I do this by accident?” And then just try to explain what it was like for you.

A lot of people did in fact have issues with what I write because my views are vastly different. I do however stay upfront about my own biases and reasons for writing the way I do. I have stated several times why I write like I do, which is to provoke thought and discussion so much so I exaggerate certain aspects.

I do however welcome anyone to enter into my writing with an actual debate. I ask people to give reasons why I am wrong if they think so as well as provide definitions for certain terms and ideas to avoid misunderstanding.

Nobody gets pissed off because I’m honest about how I write unlike a typically journalist or debater.


Indeed it is. Suffice to say I had a few names definitely in mind, and none of them have weighed in. Like I said, I WILL NOT name names.


I was about to say, but better to hear from the man himself.


I spend enough damn time posting suicide helpline numbers (and I know some other members also take this on :+1: ) when someone mentions that, and the T&C’s of the site basically state if someone runs into trouble, to see a psychologict/doctor (words to that effect, I’m not up to speed on the latest) so I can’t really go there, so in the absence of a solid case to debate whether some advice was wrong and what/how it could be changed, I can’t comment on this except to say it’s a bit of an extreme example of a thing.

I do know more people have become depressed and damaged by newage and lightworking stuff than seem to be by demonic work, though. :thinking:


I was more referring to the fact that when people debate with you they do it in a much different manner. I mean no disrespect, but I half suspect it may have something to do with who you are as much as what you are saying.

All I did was point out that there is a growing trend towards falsity, laziness and the metting out of risky advice to strangers. For that I have been labeled smug and have had some fairly obnoxious replies.

It boggles my mind why people would argue against that, but then again this whole existence is unique to me as much as it is unique to them.

And to be fair, you are more polite.

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I have seen both, and it is never pretty either way.

lol, yes. Yes you do.

The problem is that you would not know if the advice was bad if the person was not around to tell you. We don’t know what we don’t know, right? Like I said, if I must make a mistake I prefer it to be on the side of caution.

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