Natural versus demonic magick

This question is mainly directly towards those of us who believe that natural magick and demonic magick exist as separate disciplines and also believe that the latter is more powerful than the former in helping us impose our wills onto our reality. By “natural magick”, I am referring to things such as The Law of Attraction and using certain items found in nature to cast spells, etc. By “demonic magick”, I am referring to making contact with demons and having them help you.

The the question is this: On a 10-scale, with demonic magick being a 10, how powerful is natural magick? Feel free to elaborate on the number that you give. For those of you who will want to get bogged down by saying, “Well what is the specific goal you have in mind?”, the hypothetical goal would be this: Create new additional streams of income, help those aforementioned income streams flourish, and manipulate people’s free will so that it will work towards your benefit in the area of business ventures and love, sex, etc.

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It might help to first agree upon a working definition of magic.

I’ve heard it eloquently described as “The language of creation.”

I’ve heard it described as using energies and mind in various ways to create effects in reality.

I’ve heard it described as using ritual to cause change in conformity with will.

The first defines magic as the underlying forces of the cosmos, able to be manipulated. The second gives creative control of magic itself to the practitioner to discover the underlying mechanisms of magic and manipulate them directly. The third allows for magic to occur by immersion into symbolism to effect change in raptured states for effects.

“Demonic magick” could be used with any of the three. “Using magic to contact a Demon.” Whether you define a demon as a cosmic force with the first paradigm, an entity to be called up directly in the second paradigm, or an infernal being to be ritually evoked in the third paradigm. Perhaps a mixture of all three?

To say demonic magick is more or less powerful than any other form of magick one has to really get down to defining what magick is, and the exact mechanisms of how it works.

What if one could grow in power and channel forces, or manipulate causality directly, or do whatever magic the demon was going to do for you yourself, in lieu of conjuring the demon to do the spell or magical operation for you? Does that make one or the other more or less powerful? Just throwing ideas out here. What do you all think?

There is the convenience factor to summoning magic. The use of demons, entities, servitors, and intelligent constructs for doing multiple things at once.

In analogy one could dig a trench by hand(raw will,) one could use a shovel (construct or spell,) one could use a tractor(a complex and advanced construct or spell,) or call a contractor to come dig for you if you are busy(evocation.)

I’ll shut up now :slight_smile:

Those are all great observations. And I will try to address them as time permits. For now, I think we can still deal with the question as it stands, albeit talking about your points would bring great clarification. I will add one clarification to what I mean by “demon” in this context: A self-aware, intelligent entity that is not a product of human creation (so egregores don’t count for this question). In this question I am defining them as an being outside of ourselves and that have an unknown, pre-human origin.

I don’t see any real difference in the potency of the magic. The real difference is the attitude of the teacher. If you’re self taught, you can be way too easy on yourself, whereas a demonic tutor can be way too harsh.

By that definiton, I think the LoA is about 1,000 times MORE powerful than demonic magick - what a person, the god of their own creation, manifests for themselves is far more powerful than the outside influences of a demon, at least in most cases.

Look how many people on here have struggles that demons aren’t helping, and yet we reading their posts can readily see how they brought these situations on themselves?!

I’m not saying that to be harsh, because I am FAR from perfect myself, but I know I’m my own worst enemy 99% of the time.

I don’t think if someone has a problem that has its roots in every single one of their actions, expectations, and deeply held beliefs, that throwing a demon at it will fix anything, unless that demon utterly breaks their life down and then stays around to help them build it back up - a process that’s more likely to destroy the person than transmute them.

It’s that probability thing again, if someone wakes up and has vodka for breakfast every day, the heavy drive of probability is that they’ll wreck their lives because of it, so throwing a demon at them to help them have more money (for example) is powerless in the face of the stronger drives, and the beliefs and actions that underlie them.

For those of you who will want to get bogged down by saying, "Well what is the specific goal you have in mind?", the hypothetical goal would be this: Create new additional streams of income, help those aforementioned income streams flourish, and manipulate people's free will so that it will work towards your benefit in the area of business ventures and love, sex, etc.

What skills, talents and actions are you bringing to the table to create those streams of income (to pick just one area)?

Do you have a skillset that lends itself to this kind of marketing?

Example - writing compelling books about massage, where you have your own groundbreaking theories and methods, is a YES - doing massage with your own pair of hands, is a NO.

Do you have a reasonable working model of how other people have achieved this?

Things like that are areas to “deploy” spirits at, be they demons or, you know, the entire planet (or universe) of spirits who didn’t get collated into a small set of books created under the Judeo-Christian paradigm. :slight_smile:

Example - you can massage like a boss, have healed injuries for footballers and grannies alike with your hands in just 2 or 3 sessions, but you don’t have the education to understand how your movements are special, so you deploy magick to get that education within your grasp so your methods can be taught and replicated, and then you ask spirits to teach you rhetoric and pleasing methods of conveying information.

There are situations in which demonic work is very powerful, situations in which an angel is the correct and most powerful spirit, and (I would say more than both) situations in which a god, elemental, or other kind of being is the best choice, and the majority of these things, when done for ourselves, are powerless UNLESS we make the kinds of shifts that the LoA calls for, so I don’t think rating magickal methods is much use unless you know exactly what you want and where - this is critical - a lever can be successfully applied, to change probablistic outcomes in your favour. :slight_smile:

Well I want to end up having a flourish business building custom “stuff” (altars, furniture, cigar/smoking boxes, walking sticks, pet habitats, the list goes on). I have the basic skill set and tools. In order to market my ideas, I know that the LoA comes into play: I must be positive and personable, etc. But can demons help manipulate people I am trying to persuade so that they go from, “Thanks but no thanks” to “God damn, I can’t live without this”? Also, can demons literally bring people into my path that I would not otherwise had met? Or are those things best left entirely to the LoA?