Modern Magick

In E.A.'s latest videos, he says that Magick for the last 1000 years has been done through a Christian paradigm. Does this mean that the Goetia and such was just made up to match Christian ideas?

Essentially, yes. That is a very short version of a long answer. :slight_smile:

So where can one find accurate descriptions of demons then?

The demons description In the grimoires, the methods used to call them are not

Yes, what element said.

So the grimoires weren’t made with a Christian paradigm?

Christianity incorporated many ancient belief systems and distorted them to fit the Christian agenda. The Grimoirs ar written within the Christian paradigm because anything else would have been a death sentence, literally. You could not speak against or outside of the Monarch’s chosen religion.

stephdeather, have you just said that ALL grimoires were made WITHIN christian authorization and that EVERYTHING written within them, the grimoires, are therefor go WITH christian beliefs NOT AGAINST NOR OUTSIDE? So does that infer that NO ONE had ever kept a secret before, that ALL people in the WHOLE earth had been honestly dedicated to christianity? Then why do they need to hide the grimoires that later times?

I suppose EA meant there what it suppose to mean, that magick has been done through christian paradigm( not in wiccan paradigm, not islam nor pagan nor any other). Got that? “DONE THROUGH CHRISTIAN PARADIGM”, through within the society of christian believers in general, where and when christianity is the most known and most followed.

That’s not what she said the grimoires from that time where doctored by Christian and Islamic religious beliefs. That doesn’t mean everything believed it but if you didn’t want to be the next one stoned,burned ect you would place this within the grimoire to stay alive.

element,

But in my knowledge, there were yet no evidence that grimoires or practice of some sort have been publicly available during the earlier times during the greater christian paradigm to prove they were edited by christian. Logically, should be available if christians have already doctored them. What I only know of is purely witch hunting. No doctoring then allowing.

The doctoring came from the fact people had to either pretend to believe, or they DID believe, that every spirit that could affect reality through unseen ways and which did NOT avow its service to “God” was a demon.

It’s the classic “You are either for us, or against us” stance of the Abrahamic faiths.

This means any god from an ancient culture (for example) who had no intention of saying it held the desert troll-god as the highest force, would be labelled as 1. demonic and therefore, 2. of necessity, compelled to try to drag the magician to hell through temptation. Since you either worship their “God” - or are going to hell. No middle ground.

Yes they were - very much so. Grimoires were predominantly to make publishers money.

Using sensationalism and at the time of course they were hand made and very expensive.

Think that during the 13 to 15 hundreds and before the majority poor couldnt even read nor write. Some even made by the Church priests.

They were made for the rich who have ALWAYS been obsessed with the occult.

Call it the case of the Idle rich.

J

All of these responses are helpful. But what I am driving at is this: If all of modern magick derives from within a Christian paradigm, I tend to agree with E.A. that there is a more helpful path to take in doing magick. He seems to be going very much back to a system that does not rely on the Christian-Magician sources. But it sounds like that leaves us with nothing but experimentation. The “question behind my question” is: What written sources can I reference that will point out which entities are “real” and which ones were just “made up” by these Christian Magicians?

I don’t think anyone is saying the entities in the Christian-era grimoires are “made up” - just that their attributes are heavily influenced by the beliefs of the people who wrote them.

They can easily have existed for tens of thousands of years, maybe longer, before that period, have entered grimoiric records (where the heavily polarised view of the authors described them as evil and demonic) in relatively recent times, and still exist now.

Reading grimoires is like trying to learn about someone from their medical records alone - you only see one side of their life, of their abilities and personality.

Your medical records may tell me you had an appendectomy, but not that you’re a fabulous pastry chef and love Mozart, and autumn, and are kind to animals. Things like that. :slight_smile:

Buné is a good example, she seems to me to be the Egyptian goddess Buto/Wadjet, a very ancient and wise being, but in the grimoires she’s listed as male in nature, and “demon of wealth” which, while she has helped some people on here with financial matters, isn’t what i’ve spoken to her the most about.

But back in the grimoire days they only portrayed the demons as relating (broadly) to the seven main sins, of which avarice was one and which the magician had to master in himself by mastering and commanding the demons relating to it, so they lumped this glorious goddess in as a “demon of wealth” because their understanding was limited by their belief system.

Thanks Lady Eva! As always, you’ve been great at summarizing!

Thank you! :slight_smile:

I thank my spirits, who’ve given me my life, and all within it that’s good, and who’ve demanded nothing but the ability to empower other people and spread the word that we’re not adrift in an indifferent ocean of dead matter, nor slaves under a self-denying hateful troll-god, in return.

I am truly belssed, and we can all be, it’s just there for the asking. :wink:

Lady Eva, bingo, element thank you for expanding on and clarifying what I said. Jboy, I said it was the short version of a long answer! :slight_smile: Glad you got clarification.