A while back I was a job coach that worked with a wide variety of people. In training, we learned about about the characteristics of different mental illnesses. One trait was when people assigned significance or meaning to everyday occurances. For example, seeing a red bottle on the grass and interpreting that to mean that you needed to stop by the Hot Topic store to talk to the manager about your uncle or something. I can assure you, such things can be a sign of mental problems. At the same time, this type of thing seems to be a legitimate tool of magick. Any thoughts?
What criteria do you use to tell the difference in your own life?
I have been to a group therapy for those with mental illness… specifically those that suffered from manic depression an depression… I recall this very topic coming up a few times… One lady was plagued by it so badly she was afraid to go outside her home cuz just seeing a target ad with their logo of a target automatically sent her into a paranoia of someone being after her an she was a target… absolutely heartbreaking ):
for myself… I do find meaning in certain things that others would think me me a bit off my rocker for lol… I could argue that mine are different and I am “special” but that is what I choose to believe due to the nature of the signs n wonders I behold that have a very special meaning for me. Mine have even been whispered in my ear beforehand an then manifested in physical reality to give more credence as proof in my world as my non corporeal friends know how stubborn an skeptical I can be when it comes to certain things… Of course talking to things no one else can see falls under a whole other set of mental illness definitions lol.
While I’ve never had a red glass bottle talk to me and tell me to go shopping at Hot Topic, the difference is seeing the same objects or numbers repeatedly and often in strange places where you wouldn’t expect to see them.
For instance if you are working on a new project that will bring about massive and good changes in your life, if the project is successful, you may begin to see number 3’s all over the place and other signs that you can fit together to form a general impression of, that’s a sign that the magick is working, slowly but surely. Then later that day, if someone contacts you and says I had a dream last night and felt like I needed to tell you, I saw you at a desk filling out a form and there were 17 clocks on the wall that all said the time was 3:33 p.m.
You may interpret that as, okay maybe I’m not going crazy, someone else is seeing the 3’s and felt the need to say, this has something to do with you but I’m not sure what. Well, your project could include getting your life affairs in order and maybe you are seeking a new line of work that pays more and you filling out a form, to you, would represent filling out job applications.
So there is a difference, learning how to recognize patterns and repitition and know when something is truly a sign or just one of those OCD things that happens one time only and sways your brain in one direction or the other. Seeing a red bottle and thinking of Hot Topic, one time, just a coincidence, but if it keeps happening to you all week long, get in your car and drive to Hot Topic because chances are someone will be there that you need to speak to or maybe you filled out an application and they truly forgot to call you back and they will see you shopping and say hey, I remember you by the way did the manager call you yet because he said you got hired and would be calling you today.
Magical Thinking is in general characterized as a symptom of mental disorder.
Magical thinking is the attribution of causal or synchronistic relationships between actions and events which seemingly cannot be justified by reason and observation.Basically,I stab a doll,the person that doll represents dies,and I attribute a magical relation to it.
Magical Thinking,while a phenomenon in clinical psychology is not a mental disorder,as most people have some degree of superstition or religious view.Most religions are delusions by definition,but aren’t classified as such by most psychologists(though some DO think the religious are truly insane),because of society.
Beyond magical thinking,you have the next step,which most religions seldom,if ever,cross,the sights and sounds.Auditory hallucinations are common for almost every human at some point of their life,but to trigger them,and see them as external and non-self-generated,this is also a sign of mental illness.
Especially if the voices are telling you to do things you consider evil,or if the voices are abusing you.Wandering spirits do that.They see emotional vulnerability,and they exploit it.Whether they generate the mental illness or come because of it it doesn’t matter.Point is,they’ll come hand in hand.Grandiose delusions can be tricksters too.
And go far enough on this road,and you will start to see,do,hear,experience crazy things.Everybody’s definition of weird,or ‘‘far-out’’ would vary.I can tell you that I can kill a spirit by clenching my fist and having specific visualizations,am immersed within the Other Side nonstop because I’ve had the veil lifted completely(consumed more specifically),and can summon a demonic legion with my breath alone,have them all materialize in clouds of solid black smoke that turn into real entities.
You may choose to believe that,or not.Regardless,there’s really no point in talking about it until you reach a similar point of power yourself,when that’s either something you’ve done,or something plausible.For many people here(Eva,Raven,Velotak probably) that’s pretty normal.Not very far out.Tell that to most people on the outside,and they’ll think you’re insane.
You forget that psychology is a science and science does not accept magic as being real.
With that in mind,when do we go insane?
Well,when we take everything too seriously,for one thing,and believe that by wrecking a Qlipphotic sphere while engaging in a super battle with its ruling demon makes us a demonic warlord to be feared by others,yet in our real life we have no success,as in,we do not command the demons we are ruling over to help us,we have no validation of it,and when we start telling everyone,bragging,and such,yet have nothing to show.
What we do is insanity,that works.Insanity that helps.Mental illness means it ruins your mental state.Mental disorder means it crushes order.What if it helps your life?
This is also why we separate our day-to-day life from our magical life.Using different aliases(godnames),special tools(the French word ‘‘consacrer’’ means ‘‘to dedicate’’ as in to separate something by purpose,connect that to consecrate),special work places(altars),special rooms(temples). The crazy stuff into the kitty box,and the normal stuff,letting it flow into your life,and bring you the results.
Eventually,the crazy stuff becomes normal as it brings results,and then even crazier stuff comes along.And then more.And more…
Long story short,bring a psychologist here and they’ll think we’re crazy,bring a master magician here,and he’ll think we’re doing a lot of work,and bring a newbie witch and they’ll think we’re lying.
But the big question is how do YOU feel,and what do YOU think?With results YOU’ve gotten,things YOU’ve been told,and experiences YOU’ve had?
Real?Not real?Lies?Not lies?Sanity?Insanity?Does it even matter?
WHATEVER WORKS!
It’s a wild wild wild ride,and IMO the sooner your ‘‘sanity’’ or at least your notions of sanity crack the easier the ride gets.
Honestly, while I am an advocate of promoting that psychology and magick and science DO go hand in hand, I do see why all of the conversations we have been havign on this forum lately could act as a serious derailment to others. As Arcane says, it’s what YOU perceive it to be, how do YOU feel about it?
I just realized something, we all have our own versions of crazy and as others have pointed out many times before, what is crazy to you may be normal to me and vice versa. Sometimes those of us experiencing something for the first time, something that really pushes our boundaries of what we would typically consider normal or crazy, well of course there will be times when we actively turn to others on this forum or elsewhere for validation, is this crazy or normal? But also what Succupedia was refering to in his post about boundaries, I do believe that we need to set most of these boundaries ourselves.
Nothing wrong with asking someone else a few times per year, hey I feel kind of crazy but this all feels very real, has this ever happened to you? But if you turn to someone else too often to have them identify what is normal or crazy eventually these people will realize that you confide in them and have found thier answers helpful in the past and accidentally (or maybe even purposefully) start to assert their own opinions onto you, no longer just giving advice like “yeah sure man, that has happened to me, it’s completley normal with magick” but eventually going as far as flat out stating their opinions like they are facts instead of allowing the magician who asked for advice on craziness to form his or her own opinions.
If someone starts out as saying, well it seems a little crazy to me however that’s just me and we all are considered crazy to the outside world so, don’t take my word for it, there is a very real possibility that I simply have not experienced what it is you speak of and so to me it would seem unreal, but that doesn’t mean that you have not experienced it and that it’s not real to you, so use your intuition. Okay, that’s giving someone a helpful opinion, stating that no it hasn’t happened to me but that doesn’t mean it’s not real in your world.
But when they get too comfortable they may start stating things as fact like they know your experiences are indeed NOT possible because they have not experienced them too. When someone starts speaking to you like that, time to move on and talk to someone else. This is also the reason why I recommend having more than one acquaintance that you can confide in to get a much larger variable of opinions so if one friend thinks something is crazy, chances are the other friend will think it is normal. If you rely on other people (especially the same person repeatedly) for opinions on what is crazy or normal, you are getting their opinion and will begin to reshape your life path based on THEIR opinions and never fully explore it for yourself to find out.
That can derail people, indeed!
When I ask someone if they’ve ever done or felt or heard XYZ if they say no and immediately come off as thinking I’m crossing the line of normal magick into crazy hallucination delusion magick, well sure I may be, but I move on to get opinions from someone else and if no one I know has experienced the same thing, then I will say fuck all ya’ll and then dive right in head first and test it out for myself to see if it works and if it does, as long as it’s not hurting mass droves of people in the process and I’m not literally trying to dominate the entire world on some grandiose right to power trip, then it works, and I will continue to make use of it.
So, I’m really gonna stop posting so much about craziness because I too, could be accidentally derailing others. I have realized that I may not agree with everyone else here on certain things, but who am I to judge them? In the past I could be seen getting snappy with a few members here because something they wrote seemed down right psychotic to me but now, HAHAHA, knowing what I know, seeing what I’ve seen, hearing what I’ve heard, it probably is VERY real to them in their own personal reality. That’s also why I keep making videos about everyone having their own personal reality that shapes itself depending upon that person’s beliefs.
So these days, I am much more accepting. You tell me you evoked the real Batman and he bestowed upon you the ability to shapeshift into a bat and fly, okay, crazy to me, but in your world it may very well be real as day to you.
I took an Ethics class in college. The regular prof was sick or something, and we had a substitute teacher. He was a psychologist. He said that when he deals with people who hold the belief that there are beings that talk to them, he asks them if the beings are telling them to hurt themselves or others. If they answer “no”, and the people have an otherwise normal life, he never addresses the issue with them again because he said: 1) It is almost impossible to change these types of beliefs and 2) If he could convince them that the voices were not real, the person would likely have a complete mental breakdown and end up in the hospital because their grid for viewing the world had been destroyed. In that case, he said they would be worse off than before.
So, on one level I view the matter like this: If one’s belief in “signs” is helping one have a life that one finds valuable, then stick with it. But if it is making things worse for themselves, they may want to abandon it if possible.
But one thing I think I may disagree with you both on is this: I agree with E.A. in one of his videos when he said (in a loose paraphrase), “The difference between religion and magick is that magick, when done right, can be verified to other people. You say “X” is going to happen due to a ritual and “X” does in fact happen.” So if magick does not actually accomplish things in a way that changes one’s situation in a way that is verifiable to other people, then nothing separates your view from that of a religious claim.
[quote=“jboy, post:7, topic:7398”]I took an Ethics class in college. The regular prof was sick or something, and we had a substitute teacher. He was a psychologist. He said that when he deals with people who hold the belief that there are beings that talk to them, he asks them if the beings are telling them to hurt themselves or others. If they answer “no”, and the people have an otherwise normal life, he never addresses the issue with them again because he said: 1) It is almost impossible to change these types of beliefs and 2) If he could convince them that the voices were not real, the person would likely have a complete mental breakdown and end up in the hospital because their grid for viewing the world had been destroyed. In that case, he said they would be worse off than before.
So, on one level I view the matter like this: If one’s belief in “signs” is helping one have a life that one finds valuable, then stick with it. But if it is making things worse for themselves, they may want to abandon it if possible.
But one thing I think I may disagree with you both on is this: I agree with E.A. in one of his videos when he said (in a loose paraphrase), “The difference between religion and magick is that magick, when done right, can be verified to other people. You say “X” is going to happen due to a ritual and “X” does in fact happen.” So if magick does not actually accomplish things in a way that changes one’s situation in a way that is verifiable to other people, then nothing separates your view from that of a religious claim.[/quote]
In the context of a brief,and simple operation yes.
Perform a ritual for X and X will happen.
But this was not referring to those types of things.This is referring to a much wider context.If I get offended by Lucifer,and jump out at him,from my body,and clash with him.And then,after a while,I fight him.And I defeat Lucifer,and receive special powers from him.
And then I take those special powers and use them in my life,and have results you can measure from them,and I can trace my operations and prove to you that it is the same energy I took from Lucifer.
Then you evoke Lucifer and he says that he and I never fought,and I didn’t get any power from him.
Where did that juice come from?What did I use?What was my experience?If my Lucifer confirms it and yours doesn’t,who’s right?
On some forum,there was a guy who evoked Asmoday and the demon told him Koetting was a joke.I don’t agree.is version of Asmoday praises him.My version of Asmodeus praises him.
It’s just that the two of us live worlds apart from each other.
And yes,magick is results first,devotion later,as opposed to religion.Religion is also abiding by a specific moral code,and establishing specific limitations on yourself,rather than your own.
I can buy the idea that there are two different Asmodays, both of which, just happen to share the same name. But not that there is one Asmoday saying two different things unless he is a deceptive entity.
Consider the notion of modular consciousness and emotional assignment for a moment. Perspective, belief, perception, consideration, all these things are tools to be utilized in functional manors. Emotions are assigned to things we experience compelling complexity and reaction from assumed meanings. So such minor hallucinations and associations such as seeing a cup to represent something doesn’t seem so much like an illness but a less functional application of emotional assignment.
I’ve taken several psychology classes at my local university, just for fun, and from what I’ve learned, we all have some traits of mental disorders. We ALL do. Some more than others, some less, but knowing this I can’t help but assume that doctors are simply fishing for ways to explain why we have these traits in an attempt to place people inside of their own convenient box labeled with the appropriate disorders so we may begin to understand one another and how the other thinks.
People fear what they do not understand. When someone has just one or two traits of mental illness that surface only on occasion such as, superstitions of feeling the need to knock 3 times on the wall before closing a window or else a vampire may invite itself into your room while you are sleeping, or even obsessive traits such as always checking the stove 4 times to make sure it is indeed turned off because you have an overwhelming fear of setting the house on fire. Those things are labeled as simply “quirks” or “impediments”.
Take the same individual and add two more of these strange traits to his personality and he suddenly is no longer just odd or quirky, he is now mentally disorganized and psychologists attempt to match his 4 disturbing and life altering quirks to a list a slew of existing mental conditions or disorders in an attempt to label him or as they prefer to call it, to better understand his needs. I think labeling is more of a correct term here, assigning a title to this person so those who interact with him and become dumbfounded by his unusual traits will have an insight as to why he acts the way he does.
‘Sorry I got snappy with you so suddenly, I have bipolar disorder and mood swings’
‘Sorry, I wasn’t ignoring you, I have ADD and my attention trails off on its own sometimes’
and so on…
Not only do these labels make those who are external from this odd being feel more comfortable in knowing the person cannot help that which he does, but also makes the afflicted feel more at ease knowing that his impediments are not within his control, because he would never purposefully or consciously put these sort of annoyances in his own mind.
But knowing that we all display some of mental illness traits, what’s not to say that we are not all normal, but just experiencing our own versions of normal. Psychologists know this, but they cannot go around labeling everyone that one or two traits with a disorder, if they thought they could get away with it they would, to rake in on that extra cash they would make from all the extra prescriptions they would be writing and filling. So they attempt to draw the line between normalcy and madness by grouping these mental illness symptoms into classes where a person must actively display 4 to 6 (or more) traits from a particular class of disorders in order to be labeled with it.
In other words, it’s all just a big scam to make money, we’re all fucking crazy but as long as we can contain our crazy just enough to interact with one another in a civilized manner, there is no harm done. My crazy differs from your crazy, so that is why it is up to the invidual to establish those boundaries that they consider to be the line between normal and crazy, and you should never consult with another person to help you determine what your correct label is. This can be detrimental to the psyche and your magickal progress.
Some would label me as certified insane while others would say eh, you’re normal compared to me, and others would same we are about the same. So searching for others to help you label yourself, will only help you determine the label that they feel is appropriate for you. If you listen to the wrong people, those who do not have an almost identical craziness to yours, those who consider themselves normal and you abnormal, you will either begin to think that you are insane and imagining all of this and then felt let down as to why your mind could have deceived you so badly. While listening to someone who is crazier than you are, telling you that you are pretty normal to them, can cause you to start acting out on suppressed feelings and ideas and start actively seeking to become more like that person because you long to feel their awesome version of craziness.
In other words, trust yourself, listen to your own inner voice, be your own guardian angel that sits upons your shoulder, and all that other self help rainbows and unicorns on white flufffy clouds affirmation crap.