So I’ve seen the predominantly right wing ideas on this site and now the left wing members have their own thread, so I thought why can’t libertarians/anarchists have our own thread! Any libertarians of anarchists here?
@FraterMagni Good. Keep the ideas flowing. I don’t agree of course, but it’s good to have a more open debate.
@TheStorm That’s the plan
I’m going to float the idea that we all aspire, finally, towards a libertarian/anarchist future in which we evolve out of the need for laws, and our main difference lies in how to get there.
That’s my current goal anyway, but I don’t think the world is anywhere near ready yet to throw open borders and front doors, lay down all arms held by armies and the police, I think mass evolution (among other things) would have to occur before this became possible.
That line pretty much sums up a lot of what I believe in. I am one of the harshest opponents of borders anywhere on this forum, and I don’t have a very high opinion of modern weaponry. A world without borders and without any arms except for magick would be very, very good.
Yes. We also need to get rid of racism so that we can allow alot of race mixing. That would be like the genetic marriage of DNA to help open up the borders.
@Lady_Eva I couldn’t agree more. I’m a pretty staunch libertarian but I have to call bullshit on the open borders thing, at least at the moment. With all the Islamists parading around Europe, it’s just not a wise decision. As much as I dislike Trump, he’s definetly paving the way for a libertarian government, whether he knows it or not. Libertarianism is just the logical conclusion after hundreds of years of authoritarian bullshit. It’s just a damn shame that only a handful of libertarian politicians have their poop in a group.
@KissOfTheDragon You’re right on that one. Race mixing would definetly eliminate a great deal of cultural differences and would probably further human evolution.
I’ve been an Anarcho-Capitalist or Free Market Anarchist for most of my life. The way liberty will come is after WWIII when nation states cease to exist. Sure, there may not be many people and their lives may well be brutal and short – but liberty doesn’t have a price.
Frankly, I’m seeing the collectivists winning this one. After the economic collapse and die off of sickos the left wing slave class which remains will be happy on a prison planet serving and watching television. Think North Korea. Every time a freedom is taken from the masses I see rejoicing.
I chose the wrong side but I’ll do as much damage as I can before I die.
We are so screwed, I’ll pop this under a spoiler because not strictly on topic to your thread:
Tunisia is Emptying Its Prisons into Europe
The report is alarming and comes from an MEP charged with performing an inspection in Tunisia: “Of 1600 inmates who have left prison thanks to the double pardon decided by Tunisia, at least half, around 800, have already arrived in Italy.” says Angelo Ciocca, representative of the Lega [anti-immigration party in Italy], reached by telephone in Sfax, in Tunisia, where he has gone in recent days to collect evidence about the new migrant route, after the closure of the Libyan ports.
Ciocca recounts how he found out that “some young men, barely out of the local prisons, are receiving messages that offer them “safe” passages, via sea to Italy, at a cost of three thousand dinars, around a thousand euros.” They are organising to find the money and leave,” added the Lega member, recalling that people with Tunisian citizenship “have been responsible for the latest attacks in Europe.”
Libertarianism predicated on doing away with society’s immune systems, and laying down all arms when people like this are being imported into our nations doesn’t make an awful lot of sense IMO, kinda like being the only pacifists in a global bar brawl.
What I do think is that ideas like non-aggression (not the same as pacifism), socialism in terms of sharing resources, work well in smallish high-trust groups that have a shared sense of identity and destiny, common goals, and a common culture, which are all things defined by geography, generations of culture, and sense of personal identity.
Libertarian leadership is kind of self-contradictory though, because as soon as someone has a slightly different flavour of libertarianism, you either start saying “But my way is best” - in which case, you’re not really libertarian, you’re verging on authoritarianism - or you give way, and your group breaks into endless ineffective factions.
This is why I think liberty of this kind can only be evolved into, slowly - if it’s forced, we will just end up with warlords, then feudalism, then democracy, and just rinse and repeat, and that’s actually the best case scenario.
As I was saying on the leftist magick thread, underneath the branding, private and state run healthcare have the same engine - healthy majority paying small sums to fund high-cost treatment for unhealthy minority. Anything a libertarian society created to keep outsiders from raiding, to protect personal liberty, would sooner or later resemble armies and law enforcement in all but name.
And as long as anyone exists who wants what you have and is willing to use violence to take it, as long as you have people in society, in your own families, who are not physically healthy men between the ages of say 17 and 50, as long as there are any outside groups who oppose individualism and band together to outnumber you, you’ll end up needing those immune systems.
People-trafficking is also a massive problem in areas where the rule of law breaks down, that’s motivated purely by money and preys on the demographics (women and children) who your society will need if it’s not to have one last glorious hurrah, and then let whoever managed to defend their own women and kids take the planet.
With geographic boundaries becoming increasingly obsolete I think a racially mixed humanity is going to happen over time, no matter what. I honestly do not think that it will do much to promote evolution, because racial and cultural issues are just one way to polarize people against one another. There are many more ways than just these to inspire hate and misunderstanding in the world. I think you could only promote the evolution of humanity in microcosms. Physically? Adhere to natural selection. Intellectually? Sound breeding and education. Socially? Stop screwing around in the affairs of others needlessly. Culturally? Remove the chief cause, worldwide, of misery; state overreach and interventionalism. I concur with @FraterMagni that libertarianism is the only sane conclusion to a true advancement of our species. But, as has been stated, how to make it work? We really need to marry certain aspects of partisan philosophy into a minimalized system capable of essential functions only. I do not, however, support anarcho-capitalist-style libertarianism.
I’m positive that you need to do more reading on Libertarianism. I recommend For A New Liberty by the late Murray Newton Rothbard. Which of society’s immune systems do you feel Libertarians want to get rid of?
For example, passports only came into existence owing to WWI. Before that no passports. Where there waves of undesirables invading the western world? But we weren’t invading and destroying their countries or offering them free stuff - like housing and health care - either.
You surely jest?
Over 150 years, still ongoing, 1683:
[quote]The enslavement of captives taken when the Ottoman armies raided Christian countries was part of the state system of the Ottoman Empire. After he conquered Constantinople in 1453 Sultan Mehmed wrote to various Muslim rulers boasting of the enslavement of its Christian population. The Ottomans engaged in slave trading from Gibraltar to Central Asia.
The Balkan Christians of the Ottoman Empire suffered cruelly, particularly under the brutal and bitterly resented child-levy, the devshirme. From the 15th century to the early 17th century the Ottomans would seize a certain proportion of Christian boys from their villages every few years, forcibly convert them to Islam and train them for the elite fighting force known as the Janissaries or for the state bureaucracy. The devshirme was sternly enforced. If any Christian parent tried to prevent the taking of his child he was immediately hanged from his own door frame. It is estimated that between 500,000 and one million boys, from the ages of 8 to 20, were taken in this way. Occasionally, armed uprisings against the system took place, but they were quickly crushed. Some children ran away, only to return and give themselves up when their parents were tortured. [/quote]
Islam has been attempting to take Europe for centuries. Soros et al are behind the current wave of colonists.
Colonists. That is perhaps the most accurate word to describe that situation. I feel the main reason libertarianism could not work in Europe at this time is because of exactly that. They have shared borders with cultures which have been at odds with them for centuries, combined with a lot of social incentives for them to arrive, where they find massive, largely disarmed populations to pick off slowly. It does not seem to be working out very well. If the EU went libertarian over night right now they would all be wearing burkas by the same time next week. It is reminiscent of Rome just before they got pasted by Alleric.
Libertarianism seems to be the only way we won’t all blow ourselves to smithereens using atomic weapons.
I’m at a loss. What is your definition of Libertarianism?
This article – with a PDF of Rothbard’s manifesto – is informative:
Switzerland’s political system is about as close as you’ll currently get to a libertarian society. Seems to work – not perfect, but pretty good.
As for invasive hoards of Muslims attempting to conquer Europe I make reference to the earlier Crusades. I also make reference to invasive Xtian hoards in America and Australia.
Nation states (which aren’t that old as a political system) have us where we are now and will finish off themselves and their slaves. Fortunately the badly ‘educated’, indoctrinated and alliterate slaves can’t see past about ninety minutes into the future so they support the system which keeps them enslaved. They tenaciously cling to their enslaver’s manufactured paradigms.
Nation states are a rhp systems par excellence and with modern technology Direct (as opposed to Representative) democracy could easily work.
Bookmarked to answer when I have more time. I don’t totally disagree about nation states, but neither do I think libertarians have the answers the world needs right now.
Btw those “invasive hoards” didn’t ATTEMPT to conquer Europe, they ruled Spain for centuries:
Islamic rule in the Iberian peninsula lasted for varying periods ranging from only 28 years in the extreme northwest (Galicia) to 781 years in the area surrounding the city of Granada in the southeast.
Also eastern Europe.
Not really a passing raid by some cheeky lads who didn’t know any better, is it?
Up to one million boys taken as slaves in the Balkans… the Ottoman slave trade (trading with the Vikings, who are promoted as models of liberty and yet sold their own neighbours into slavery for centuries). Hmmn.
The Crusades were a shitshow as well, like all monotheistically-motivated middle eastern lunacy.
Did someone say anarchist ️:smiling_imp:.
Ps. Too many emojis
I’m poking my head in to cheer for Juris Naturalis
I’m heavily libertarian. Anarchy is my Utopia.