Not planning on getting this circle, but here is a quote from the website for the Universal Circle that may shed some light: “as opposed to circles that flaunt useless god names and try to violently “threaten” the spirit” (while for the UC, I think it applies here too). It may not match the circle as depicted in grimoires, but does it have to? The Middle Ages are long gone, and one need not work with the xian names of god to work with the entities within a grimoire. A traditionalist will disagree, but I’ve never been a traditionalist. I don’t need this circle (though it is nice looking), I already have a Circle of Pacts from Dante and my own circle for non demonic use; but the one offered here is at least a decent modern interpretation of an older design. If you don’t require the names of god or call upon them, then this circle seems like it would suit a person with that mindset just fine. Call it getting closer to the old school style with a modern touch and method.
You keep mentioning “indoctrinated into a religion”. Which one would that be? I was raised in a non religious environment but have converted to demonolatry while maintaining veneration of La Santisima Muerte and a few pagan deities. So no Timothy, I was no indoctrinated by anybody.
How are taking out the divine names, copying Michal Ford’s ouroboric design, then making it smaller “beneficial modifications”? And how does changing it make it a Solomonic circle?
The divine names are also integral to the circle. Perhaps if you would actually study Solomonic evocation you’d know that the divine names surrounding the circle represent the divine hosts surrounding the Abrahamic deity. The magician obtains his authority to summon in the spirits and so he mirrors God, with the circle representing the universe.
My point isn’t that it won’t work. My point is that’s not a Solomonic circle and is useless in Solomonic circle. My issue is its misrepresentation. It would be fine in modern evocation, such as evoking eternity, but a true Solomonic magician wouldn’t even consider purchasing it for grimoire evocation.
Considering that Koetting stated that this circle was made to please those who wanted BaLG to make a classic Solomon’s circle from the Lemegeton, and Koetting stating that this circle is the same popular circle - I don’t understand your motivation to change the circle to a ‘Koettingnized’ version of it. That defeats the purpose he stated is the reason for making this circle in the first place. I understand why you didn’t make it 9 feet. 9 feet is impractical when considering the normal space you have for placing a circle in an appartment. But it’s wrong to say that 9 feet is religious dogma. It has nothing to do with religious dogma and everything to do with symbolism, that both magic aswell as religion draws from.
For the above reasons it also defeats the purpose when you don’t include the names of power in the circle. Again, you wanted to please those who wanted the classic Solomon’s circle, and Koetting stated that this was the correct traditional circle, so why you didn’t include something of such a huge symbolical importance as the names of power is again something I don’t get, considering the words chosen in the advertisement. THis makes even less sense since you DID include the greek ‘Alpha’ and ‘Omega’. Why is that OK, when the names of the angels and names of the Hebrew God aren’t? Why is greek OK, but hebrew and christian isn’t?
The exact same can be said for the missing pentagrams outside of the circle. I understand that you most likely didn’t include them because of space, but why not then make the pentagrams fit by making them in smaller size?
It’s of course fine if Koetting wants to make his own significantly altered version of the Solomon’s circle from the Lemegeton, but he missed the mark by a long shot if he wanted to make the classic Solomon’s circle for traditionalists. I very much doubt a traditionalist will want to buy this circle.
Critique here shouldn’t be about whether or not this will work, because of course it will. If you can evoke angels with just a simple lined circle, you can definately also evoke angels with this circle. Anyone who disagree should make the attempt and see for themselves. This critique is about the way that was advertised for this circle.
If you want to sell Koetting’s significantly different version of the circle in the Lemegeton, then you should not advertise in a way that makes it seem like it is the correct version that everyone is familiar with - because it’s simply not. There are very significant differences between this new circle from Koetting and the classic circle that we are all familiar with from the Lemegeton, and advertising anything but is actually kind of insulting to the intelligence of the customers, because Koetting is saying something that most of us know is simply not true.
As already said, the symbols on the classic circle from the Lemegeton has nothing to do with religious dogma, and everything to do with the symbolism of it’s time. This symbolism has just as much to do with magic as it has with religion. Don’t confuse it with religion. This is as also already said, not meant as if this symbolism is NECESSARY for evoking angels, because it’s not, but what is necessary and what is not is also besides the point when considering the words chosen in the advertisement - again my critique is about the advertisement of the circle, and not the circle itself per se.
It is a beautiful circle though.
That’s my attempt at positive critisism. I hope it’s taken as such.
Hey, my main circle is made from oak blocks, no names of god there, yet somehow I can evoke the entities from Solomonic texts. Perhaps is not the circle that makes the magick happen, is there a slight chance that what makes it all work is in the hands of the magician his or her self? The circles add symbolism for ease of working with specific powers, but a successful end result begins and ends with the individual practitioner; the circle won’t cause failure, just a lack of patience, experience and resolve.
Not a single comment was delivered as a “legitimate concern”.
He was being a smug, passive-aggressive cunt, and I called him out on it. Just like I’ve called you out on it - and I’m going to keep doing it.
I refuse to let anyone come into my house and start claiming we’re “liars” and “just want money” and “our tools don’t work” - especially when he’s targeting someone who is as dedicated to magick truth and integrity as E.A.
Exactly.
Religion: a system of belief or dogma.
You’re stuck in an obsolete paradigm where if a T is not crossed, an I is not dotted, or if a design modification has occurred - SUDDENLY THE FORCES OF MAGICK DON’T WORK!
[quote=“Euoi”]How are taking out the divine names, copying Michal Ford’s ouroboric design, then making it smaller “beneficial modifications”? And how does changing it make it a Solomonic circle?
The divine names are also integral to the circle. Perhaps if you would actually study Solomonic evocation you’d know that the divine names surrounding the circle represent the divine hosts surrounding the Abrahamic deity. The magician obtains his authority to summon in the spirits and so he mirrors God, with the circle representing the universe. My point isn’t that it won’t work. My point is that’s not a Solomonic circle and is useless in Solomonic circle. My issue is its misrepresentation. It would be fine in modern evocation, such as evoking eternity, but a true Solomonic magician wouldn’t even consider purchasing it for grimoire evocation.[/quote]
“True Solomonic magician”
Translation: religious fundamentalist.
I agree that the Circle is not 100% representative of the original design of the Circle of Solomon - this does not mean you cannot perform Solomonic magick successfully!
Must we still harvest blood from the period of a virgin girl? And use genuine calf skin for our sigils, slaughtered at the right astrological timing?
Also, I see you’ve relaxed your offensive and slanderous attacks on us. You’ll find in the future that if you have a question, concern, or constructive criticism - just being polite will get you much further, than hurling veiled insults.
We never said we promised to make a “classic” Circle of Solomon.
I said we received a multitude of requests for the Circle in general - and the reception of our Solomonic Circle has been greater than even the Universal Circle.
As always, we are going to provide our clients what we consider to be optimal for increasing personal power. We’re very clear in our more experimental and progressive attitude toward magick, as opposed to the “fundamentalist traditionalists” who cling to books written by men in medieval times.
Do you have some anger issue Timothy ? Because it looks like you have.
Look, I dont care personnally whether this circle is or isn’t Solomonic because I dont practice solomonic evocation anymore. But you have to understand that solomonic magic is GT and “T” stands for TRADITION.
Therefore if you release a “solomonic” circle, saying it is solomonic, but without respecting the tradition to the letter you can’t be surprised that people come back at you. Is it that difficult to understand ?
Besides, you just cant talk to people like you do. Everyone here is or CAN BE a EA/BALG customer. Maybe Euoi bought every previous BALG releases and believe me that if he did, he wont now. Likewise, you might make other potential customers run away, seeing how you get pissed easily and insult people.
When you do a job involving customers like you do and like I DO as well, you can’t let your feelings go this way and insult people when you dont like this or that in their questions/reactions.
You have to act as a professionnal and let me tell you that your insults and behaviours are all but professionnal.
You’re not helping EA business nor giving of him and of BALG a good image acting this way.
Moreover, think of it this way. With BALG you’re showing how you handle a website and deal with clients which means that in some way this is your resume. Supposing I’m a magician/occult professionnal practitioner looking for someone to advertise my teaching, I could be interested to hire your service. Now, if I see you act this way, getting pissed as soon as a customer/member point an objection and insult them, I would certainly not hire you. So, not only you dont help EA behaving like that but firstly you dont help yourself.
So, relax and learn to control a bit more your emotions and to act as a professionnal, even if sometimes customers/members make you nutz.
This is a forum, a place where people give opinions. Sometimes they will congratulate BALG/EA/you/whatever and this is all nice, and sometime they will object/ask question/point things, and you have accept that and to treat the latter the same way you do with the former. Because this is the proper way to handle customers/possible customers and just business good sense.
[quote=“Timothy, post:25, topic:2380”]We never said we promised to make a “classic” Circle of Solomon.
I said we received a multitude of requests for the Circle in general.
As always, we are going to provide our clients what we consider to be optimal for increasing personal power. We’re very clear in our more experimental and progressive attitude toward magick, as opposed to the “fundamentalist traditionalists” who cling to books written by men in medieval times.[/quote]
You didn’t write “classic” but you wrote some of the advertisement as if it is implied. I’ll provide some quotes from the advertisement to show it:
““That being said, there are purists who’d rather have a beautiful Circle of Solomon in their temple, or ritual space, specifically for Qabalistic and angelic workings.””
You state here that this circle is designed for the “purists”, that means the traditionalists. Those that want what is traditional, not inventive and new. You didn’t make a purist circle of Solomon. You made a new and significantly altered version of the purists circle of Solomon.
““Take advantage of the most popular…circle in history””
But it isn’t the most popular circle in history. It’s a new circle that no one has seen before now. Missleading advertisement.
““It’s the most famous and respected magick circle in history””
Again, No, it isn’t. It’s very different from the circle you took inspiration from.
““Harness the magick forces of the Qabalah for Ascent””
If it’s supposed to harness the Qabalistic forces, then why are you arguing so much against having the qabalistic names of power within the circle? Calling the qabalistic names for “religious dogma”, when this “religious dogma” is clearly stated as being one of the purposes of your new circle.
““Tap into the Hermetic powers of the Hebrew gods to enhance the potency of your rituals””
Again, the same argument as I wrote just above. Why state here on the forum that you didn’t intend this circle to be filled with “religious dogma” from the qabalistic symbolism when you state the exact opposite in the advertisement? And you wrote “Hebrew gods” in plural, but you only provided one single Hebrew godname in the circle - Adonay. Alpha and Omega isn’t Hebrew, it’s Greek. Which again clearly states that your advertisement points towards an intention to provide the names of power within the snake itself, but you didn’t, and you argue against this “religious dogma” here on the forum. You also argue against using the power of the Hebrew names of power here on the forum, because you believe that your way is better, but in the advertisement quoted above you clearly state that these names increase the power of the ritual. Missleading advertisement, and self-contradicting argumentation.
““Most famous and respected magick circle””
No it’s not. This circle is not the most famous and respected magick circle. It’s a new magic circle loosely based on Mathers/Crowley’s version of the circle in Lemegeton. And even Mathers/Crowley’s circle was significantly more “accurate”, according to the historically popular circle in the Lemegeton, than this one is.
Not to say that this new circle isn’t beautiful and of a cheap price. It certainly is. I am surprised that you have more buying this circle than the Universal circle, but that is not to say that the purists are the ones who are buying, which is what you stated this circle was primarily made for.
But making exaggerated and sometimes missleading and incorrect advertisement isn’t necessary at all. It’s in my opinion doing this movement a disservice. Koetting’s material is more than able to stand on it’s feet, without making exaggerations. You have made a wonderful site and forum that gives spectacular services, and often at better prices than elsewhere, but the exaggerations and missleading statements are unecessary, and in my opinion unwanted. I understand that exaggerations is the norm in advertisement, but I think it should be left out when advertising on magical art.
But that’s just my opinion anyways. It’s not me who made this forum, but critisism is something any business should be thankful for, because it’s a sign that people care about what happens with this place.
The idea and concept of a magickal circle dates back for thousands of years. The circle itself is nothing more than a geometric construct intended to represent and exist by itself, until another representation fills the void, in this case, a “magickal” circle.
In my 18 + years as a Golden dawn initiate, I have experimented with countless magickal circle designs, the “Solomonic” not with standing.
My respect for the Hebrew language and the learning process I went through with them will forever be invaluable. My designs, mostly in mixed media on various foundations(basement concrete, wood panel floors,etc) were made from varying designs given to me from countless magicians. The traditional Solomonic Circle is a beautiful piece of art with the intent of imbuing the true essence of any ritual. I would take about 2-3 days carefully drawing out all the hebrew, all the lines and images,etc…preparing my mind for the final evening(immersion). My journals are filled with many circles I drew, and what about the results?..in complete honesty(from my experience) the same as now, only now I use the UC(previously only designing the circle from memory as an astral impression around me(and still do to this day).
Creating Solomonic Circle as MODS(modified) is growing day by day in the occult world. You need to look no further than the true Solomonic hardliner of serious anal retentive magickal practice than the cruel viper moderator from Evocationmagic.com. His name escapes me but recently I found his blog which, of all things, he posted his distaste for the old solomonic crowley version and instead designed on paper his new circle(freely available for everyone to make). Link is below.
Upon observing EA’s new Circle, it contains all the imagery and symbols necessary for a successful magickal outcome. If evocation is your thing it will work, if its talisman charging(like how I did in the past) then it will work…period.
The traditional values of the old Solomonic rites were a learning process for me. In some way, it was meant to be absorbed and then De-constructed to fit my needs.
Happy Monday
Xavier
Yes it is.[/quote]
That’s Solomonic? Gimme a break.
[quote=“Timothy, post:18, topic:2380”]No. It’s not “missing” them. We chose to leave them out deliberately.
You do not need them. You do not need everything listed in the canon version of the Circle to get results.[/quote]
If it’s not the canon, traditional version, then you have no right in calling it “Solomonic”. You’re insulting real GT practitioners.
So you took liberty in modifying it and then saying it’s still “Solomonic”? What if I create my own circle, based on your version of the UC (which isn’t even Universal) and then sell it on ebay saying it’s Koettinan circle?
And this is how you treat them? Yea, you’re real masters, respecting fellow practitioners all the way.
Yea, make the insult to last.
[quote=“Timothy, post:18, topic:2380”]There is no right or wrong.
There is only what works.[/quote]
Oh, so the actual GT Solomonic circle doesn’t? Jesus…
[quote=“Euoi, post:2, topic:2380”]You realize that’s not the actual circle of Solomon, right?
I won’t go into colors, but he is missing the divine names which should go around the serpent and from Koetting’s photo of himself meditating in it, it’s clearly way too small. Traditionally, it should be 9 to 12 feet. Six feet can be used AT THE VERY LEAST. The circle should be large enough to comfortable fit an altar/tools of the art, and allow the magician to walk around a little.
Furthermore, I made a proper circle of Solomon already. Divine names and six feet in diameter. And it looks pretty and took less than a day to complete.[/quote]
There is no such thing as THE “actual” or “proper” Solomonic circle.
Nope.
Koetting's new circle isn't Solomonic. Clearly based upon it, but it is incomplete and too small. I'm not going to sit here and argue with you because there'd be no point. But I would hope that balg can at least be honest to its customers and not straight up lie about their products.
And, pray tell, what is the source of this true and correct and complete “Solomonic” circle?
Your circlemight work for MODERN evocation, but it wouldn't stand a chance in actual Solomonic magic.
Lol, and the Ars Goetia gives you the blueprint for “actual Solomonic magic”? The same Goetia that cribbed its conjurations virtually word-for-word from the Heptameron, which, by the way, employs a different circle.
Your alleged “tradition” is itself a post-Renaissance pseudepigraphic invention with, as a whole, no actual link to Solomon. Laughable.
Straw man.
Nono, I’ll tell you what’s laughable: your understanding of the matter. Solomon is a SYMBOL. A perfect magician IS Solomon. Jesus…
Will just shit Geburah all over here.
Nooooo! Chesed, please!
With such an argument you seem to have misunderstood both sides in this argument. This isn’t about whether or not the actual Solomon had a circle like this.
This is about the marketing of this circle as being the famous circle that so many grimoire purists are interested in - ““Take advantage of the most popular…circle in history””.
Did you see the video in which EA talks about this product? He says the circle will summon angels on it’s own! You only need to have it!
Yeah, I by default doubt this very much, but to be fair, it might just do this, I don’t have it so I don’t know. But just opening, holding and reading from Dantes book Necromantic Sorcery an entity was actually summoned, so I know that such a claim isn’t necessarily false.
Yeah, I by default doubt this very much, but to be fair, it might just do this, I don’t have it so I don’t know. But just opening, holding and reading from Dantes book Necromantic Sorcery an entity was actually summoned, so I know that such a claim isn’t necessarily false.[/quote]
So you had that experience too with N.S.? I banished it cause I had no fucking clue what it was.
I didn’t want to start a panic so I didn’t say anything. Honestly it could have been an angry spirit from where I work, there are a ton there. It tried to attach itself to me at the back I burnt it away and banished it, and for good measure I banished everything around my work space back into the book. (Book included)
[quote=“Orismen, post:39, topic:2380”]So you had that experience too with N.S.? I banished it cause I had no fucking clue what it was.
I didn’t want to start a panic so I didn’t say anything. Honestly it could have been an angry spirit from where I work, there are a ton there. It tried to attach itself to me at the back I burnt it away and banished it, and for goo measure I banished everything around my work space (Book included)[/quote]
I didn’t want to banish anything because, I didn’t know it’s agenda, and I don’t want my N.S. book to become impotent. I called the spirit to manifest before the circle because it was screwing with my life, and giving me bad luck, so I confronted it and told it to stop, and so it has. But I work very Jake Stratton Kent-ish, so I don’t like to hurt or dominate any entity. So I gave it the choice to either leave or stay and stop making choices regarding my life without consulting me first.
EDIT: But I have gained an increased respect and appreciation towards properly consecrated books, because of Dantes skills at consecration. funny that you had so similar experience, mate. 