I have been pouring over pics of knives dagger and swords for work and play, and have found one i really like for primary ritual use/athame and a question popped in, does an athame need to be a dagger or does it really matter? Also, is there anyone who feels to use one knife or dagger for one ritual or entity etc but another for a differnt one?
no doubt the answer is,use whatever you feel to, but ‘daggers’ have been kinda the norm, so other than the symbolism of the work being a double edged sword- are there any words of wisdom which can be thrown at me?
Well, an Athame is the black handled knife of the witch, a magician’s dagger serves the same purpose as it acts as a tool to direct our will within the constructs of ritual.
The knife is an extension of us in ritual as it acts as a medium of orchestration to direct our will and thoughts in a more controlled ritualistic sense.
The wand is really symbolic of the magicians will (to act) and the sword is used a lot to banish the spirits as its cutting edge can suggest a threatening tone to the spirits if they don’t obey! (These aspects of ritual magic have always amused me but some seem to take them seriously.)
The magician’s dagger or wand is a very masculine extension of his will, whereas the chalice is the feminine equivalent as it holds the power of the proceedings within through the liquid it contains. The chalice represents those passive qualities that can be used in a variety of useful ways.
I find it funny how the athame always represents masculinity (the long penis shaped knife) and the chalice always represents femininity (the cup with an opening that you can stick things inside of). I’ve always noticed that pattern that there really doesn’t seem to be any significance to the gender roles most magickal tools are assigned, it seems like these tools are only labeled as feminine or masculine based on the way they are shaped.
Maybe I’m the only one who has noticed but most tools and symbolic items that are long, pointy, or cylindrical (like a penis) are always labeled masculine and items that are always round cup shaped (like a woman’s uterus) are labeled as feminine. It just seems to me that tools that have gender associations are only given those associations based on which body part they remind people of. I always saw this as negative because it serves as yet another reminder that woman are supposed to be the nuturers, the ones that give life and birth and men, since they have a body part that protrudes proudly like a sword which is piercing to remind people that men are supposed to be viewed as the dominant gender.
I don’t ever assign gender roles to my tools because I find it degrading, sort of like how little girls are only supposed to like pink and purple and boys are supposed to like blue and green. I hate pink, love blue. Think about it, even when referring to other things anything that represents the light, the sun, etc. is also known as masculine but anything dark, including the moon represents women. We all know that most people have negative connotations associated with darkness and night so of course, women would be the gender chosen to represent the evil dark side of things because we know that all monotheistic religions have negative views of women in several ways to the point that some cultures abuse women, convinced that they are creatures of the “devil”.
I think all of these associations were pre-planned by men on purpose to remind people that men are godly, good, creatures and women are the evil, baneful creatures, a way to subconsciously keep people reminded that women should be inferior to men because that’s what men have wanted since the dawn of creation. Men cannot stand it when women prevail or get ahead of them. Some men won’t even date or marry a successful woman because it makes them feel less manly and inferior and the thought of feeling inferior to a woman just kills most men’s spirit and dignity.
You may think I’m just rambling on here but take a good long look around you, and you will see that in every religion, even magickal religions, all things negative represent the female, while all things positive represent the male. Mainstream religions go as far as to only mention women as whores, blasphemers, ungodly, dirty, and so on and most magickal religions may not take it that far as to have books that promote men as the better gender all around but still, they have gender roles assigned to most tools and elements, and so on that serve the same purpose.
Several years ago it was even okay if men practiced christian magick, which is a form of paganism whether they want to admit it or not, but if a woman practiced magick she was labeled as a witch and killed. So no matter what form of therapy or relief women choose to go to, to escape the gender role pre-requisites someone male always comes in and tries to force the women out, take over, and say it’s okay when the men do it but if women do it, they are horrible creatures. So I don’t associate gender roles with anything that has to do with magick or colors, or anything else.
Even in christian faiths, only men could be the godly angels but demons could be female all day long.
On the plus side, magick is the ONLY field of human endeavour where no-one’s ever doubted women’s ability and power - as you said, calling women “witches” as a slur, and assuming we’re naturally more in tune with spirits was a common (if misogynistic) thing, in the past in Europe and elsewhere still.
But hey, no-one’s ever needed to legislate the spirits to give us poor little dolly-birds a fair chance at casting spells, or do “affirmative action” to let us in!
Have you read the chapter on Gender in the Kybalion? It makes it clear that nothing can manifest without the feminine, and that we both have access to both gender states anyway, so they’re more like the two poles of creation than one being viewed as superior or more important than the other.
First of all, I love women, they have always been my best pals and I appreciate their opinions and the way they perceive at times compared to us lot.
I am far more risen however than the average man (who I find quite shallow, especially the non-magicals), hence I love women’s company more than men at times but this also comes down to the nature of energy within our gender?
Men have an active type of energy, this isn’t due to being a man though (it’s just the masculine movement) whereas women, have a passive element…once again this has nothing to do with being a woman, it’s just the momentum of feminine energy. We all have both masculine and feminine attributes within us though as both are needed but not always appreciated.
Hence, the masculine ‘gives’ and the feminine ‘takes’ so I suppose magical tools will reflect this energy and thereby work symbolically in this fashion. I use the chalice for many things in ritual as its ‘feminine’ qualities hold the water, which I can bottle up afterwards as water takes in its environmental qualities and patterns, so the water from a particular ritual will contain the energies of that ritual (intention) and I can re-use this later for similar rites or as a continuation of the same procedure at a later date. This however is very feminine as it allows me to ‘contain’ which is something I couldn’t do with masculine output.
I always saw this as negative because it serves as yet another reminder that woman are supposed to be the nuturers, the ones that give life and birth and men, since they have a body part that protrudes proudly like a sword which is piercing to remind people that men are supposed to be viewed as the dominant gender.
I would never put women either above me or below me as I recognise their value and beauty, not to mention the fact that we couldn’t exist without each other as both are very much needed for survival. I do understand the point your making here though (and agree) because men have done alot over the years to try and keep women ‘at bay’ and this just reflects their inferiority and downright fear towards them > which suggests that women are more than lightly, the dominant gender?
“The cult of the Goddess was afterall, probably the first magical or religious movement to take place long before the masculine or ‘active’ principle took over and repressed that feminine energy. Hence, the sun cults swept away the lunas, which is fucking wrong and downright arrogant > a typical ‘male’ thing eh”
Women tend to be more versatile then men, which allows a more successful multitasking element to shine through them. Women can step into the man’s world very well indeed, they can wear trousers (pants) or skirts and I love the dominance in some of them, I find it sexual (she can sit on top lol), whereas men don’t appear to have this diversity at times. When you examine the word WOMAN though you see this multitasking energy > WO - MEN so she has the abilities to give and take and therefore, come into ‘our’ world quite easily, which I think will scare and intimidate the average masculine output within many men.
Men cannot stand it when women prevail or get ahead of them. Some men won't even date or marry a successful woman because it makes them feel less manly and inferior and the thought of feeling inferior to a woman just kills most men's spirit and dignity.
Yes your right here again as many men have pathetic little ego’s (not included here lol) and like to dominate because of the active energy momentum and their fear over the power of the feminine…so yes, many will feel intimidated in the company of a successful women, especially if she’s attractive as well! ( this would make his little penis feel even smaller as many think with what’s in their pants compared to what’s in their minds ‘haha’).
So as you see Raven, some of us men are not like the vast majority of that masculine or active output that makes many men “think” that they are in control, when in reality, both are equally needed as without this, we simply could not create, progress and succeed.
* please excuse these comments as it’s a bit off topic, I have no intention of derailing Frater’s opening post concerning ritualistic daggers. So if you want to continue this ‘battle of the sexes’ Raven, then start a new thread and I will jump in there with you
Ive frequently thought the same. I think its ridiculous personally. One of the most annoying gender labellings are on pipes and electrical fittings… “male” and “female” parts everywhere, all “mating” with each other.
Honestly makes me want to fucking scream. Apparently it doesnt bother anyone else, though.
Maybe Im just a prude.
Outside of general shape, I dont see how any gender association can hold up, considering that (IMO) there is no objective feminine, nor objective masculine, and the idea that there is is just a product of human culture and humans tendency to categorize and divide, and also to view the universe in a human (and almost always, male) centric way.
“Feminine” and “masculine” are just ideas, and ideas are always fluid and shaped by the person holding the idea, and in an instant, that idea can jump to another, and take on an entirely different form.
[quote=“Lady Eva, post:4, topic:7145”]On the plus side, magick is the ONLY field of human endeavour where no-one’s ever doubted women’s ability and power - as you said, calling women “witches” as a slur, and assuming we’re naturally more in tune with spirits was a common (if misogynistic) thing, in the past in Europe and elsewhere still.
But hey, no-one’s ever needed to legislate the spirits to give us poor little dolly-birds a fair chance at casting spells, or do “affirmative action” to let us in!
Have you read the chapter on Gender in the Kybalion? It makes it clear that nothing can manifest without the feminine, and that we both have access to both gender states anyway, so they’re more like the two poles of creation than one being viewed as superior or more important than the other.[/quote] i dont think so.In most animalistic tribal societiesBiker gangs etc women arent even considered people,they are considered property.I wouldnt be suprised to learn that most witches that are on a higher occult level are male.Raymond Buckland ,E.A Koetting etc.If you do some investigating youll see the major occult groups are fronted by men.Men are naturally spiritual leaders.I think the womans role is important too to serve and help the family.
This thread seems to be going into a men VERSUS women direction - moderator warning (yes, I have my serious hat on now, and no - I’m NOT joking) - sort it out, get back on topic to the OP about knives, daggers, etc., or go elsewhere with this kind of men versus women material.
My apologies to Lady Eva and Frater for taking this topic in a direction other than what was intended. I read a previous comment and it got me thinking about the male female thing. I tend to go overboard when I feel strongly about something, so I apologize.
So I guess the answer is ultimately- use whatever you wish whether it is one sided blade or 2. Thanks
[quote=“Frater Dark Matter, post:1, topic:7145”]I have been pouring over pics of knives dagger and swords for work and play, and have found one i really like for primary ritual use/athame and a question popped in, does an athame need to be a dagger or does it really matter? Also, is there anyone who feels to use one knife or dagger for one ritual or entity etc but another for a differnt one?
no doubt the answer is,use whatever you feel to, but ‘daggers’ have been kinda the norm, so other than the symbolism of the work being a double edged sword- are there any words of wisdom which can be thrown at me?
I agree with that. The only thing needed to keep in mind is that it’s not the material that holds the key for it is only a representation of it’s use to remind that what it represents is present during the work.
I use a one-sided blade, I had plans to get it sharpened but it’s so beautiful, I decided not to risk it (plus it asked me not to, it’s perfect as it is) and it works just fine…
I posted about it here and then, like I said, decided against changing it, but you can see the knife in that photo.
Thanks so much. Especially the fact that I am not the only one who is spoken to by appearant inanimate objects! !! so great to not be alone
I use a one-sided blade, I had plans to get it sharpened but it’s so beautiful, I decided not to risk it (plus it asked me not to, it’s perfect as it is) and it works just fine…
I posted about it here and then, like I said, decided against changing it, but you can see the knife in that photo.[/quote]
