Is goetia all in our heads

Like DuQuette suggests, or are they actual entities? If they are all in our heads, how likely is it that we would have a relationship with our mind?


I don’t know how many time I have to repeat this, but IT DOES NOT MATTER.

Whether the demons of the Ars Goetia exist as external beings, or are aspects of our own consciousness, has no bearing whatsoever on the magical results one can obtain by calling upon them.

This is one of those pointless debates that serves no real purpose, like the whole “Does God exist” ridiculousness. Since no belief can be objectively proven, it’s a useless argument that accomplishes nothing.


If the entities are not external beings then they can’t be used to protection against magical attacks, so it’s not a pointless debate if you ask me.


And why would you assume that? There is nothing to support such an assumption.


How can they be wards against magical attacks if they are only archetypes?


You can call upon your godself, which is generally believed to be a greater aspect of your soul, to banish spirits and cleanse an area in your name, so why couldn’t you also call upon other aspects of your consciousness such as the spirits of the Goetia? :thinking:

If they are archetypes, as you said, then they are not only aspects of your mind, but also connected to the collective unconscious of the entire human race (definition of an archetype) which would give them access to all the information humans have accrued over our existence, including that of defensive magick.

Humans can create thoughtforms capable of defending against magical attack, and thoughtforms are simple constructs made from our consciousness. Archetypes are basically an even more powerful type of thoughtform, created by humans over millennia, as symbols representing certain traits and characteristics. The archetype of a magician, for example, is pretty well known, and all you have to do is say the word, and the traits and abilities automatically come into mind.


Well, that depends.

What is “Actual”? What is “Existence”?

A long time ago I wrote a post on how the essence of Sorcery is learning the Art of Talking to Yourself.
Meditating on your consciousness and expanding your awareness until something Other answers back. Then, communicating with that “Other” until it became clear that there was no “Other”. There was never any “Other”.

There was only you, the three-eyed god sitting at the center of the universe, where all things arise by the contemplation of One.

How do you expect to prove that ANY part of your experiential reality is shared by anyone else?
How do you prove that there IS an anyone else?

That which we amnifest in the universe is that which exists in our universe. Whatever Mnemonic (Heh, Demnemonic.) we must use to bring ourselves back around to that point, by all means use. Whatever name you must give it, call away.


That make sense. Is that’s also what happens if I for instance invoke Paimon for learning a scientific technique that I just will know how?


Ok everyone, I’m going to give you my two cents. I personally evoked all 72 of them.

At this point in my journey it is my understanding that these are not aspects of ourselves per se…unless you feel that everything is an aspect of yourself that is…

For me these beings are very objectively real, with thier own likes, dislikes, ect.

They can turn on you and bite you right in the ass too.

Whether you believe they are aspects of yourself or not it doesn’t change how they are called or how they are treated. So it really is like @DarkestKnight said. It doesn’t matter.

But for the record I go with they are objectively real.


According to many ancient spiritual traditions, our mind is the Mind of God, so we are connected to all things in existence. Our brain creates the illusion of separateness in order to help ensure survival on the physical plane, thus we start building a personality and ego from the moment we incarnate.

So if your mind is also the Mind of God, then you already have access to all the information you could possibly ever need.

However, because of the persistent illusion of separateness, it is much easier for us to accept the idea of an external force that embodies what we need than it is to put our illusion aside and access the information directly. So if you evoke Paimon to teach you a scientific technique, for example, then what happens is your mind will open up to the flow of information, and you will find yourself flooded with new ideas and concepts, and directions of inquiry, that you never considered before. You might also find yourself dreaming symbolically, like how James Watson dreamed of the double helix of DNA when he couldn’t figure it out consciously.

Edit to add: I should also point out that I don’t necessarily subscribe to the belief that spirits are aspects of human consciousness. I’m just playing devil’s advocate and showing that such a belief in no way impairs the magical results one can achieve by calling on them.


Wow, lol. Some posts of mine …
I feel they are real entities, just as you and I, though there are some that are questionable to evoke, such as Andras. However, the reason I raised the question was that if they are individuals, the goetia is a bit flat in describing eachs likes and dislikes for example

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What does this mean exactly bro? Should we magicians only do business with nice spirits? Before I say more I’d like you to elaborate further on what you meant please. :grinning:

Hey the forums been dead all day atleast to you spiced it up a little.


Well, in a tribal warring society, gathering Raum, Andras and others would be ones I’d want on my side. Some hitmen and warriors can actually be nice and kind. Some could be very thick skinned.
No, not every spirit can be nice, Shem angels included.
But there is the first rule: safety.


The reason I ask is I’m doing tarot meditations, and invoking a pair of goetia and a pair of Shem as I meditate on their card (do you know the 3 and 10 of pentacles have a sigil?), I’d rather know them and their office to know more about God. And myself.
But I’d rather invoke than evoke in some cases.

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The last pic is blank for some reason, but Andras is one to invoke off one of the Tens.
Reason for the question

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Well, thank you all, I guess we’ve nailed the answer, yes, they are real individuals all linked to one mind in the grand scheme of things, and we’re and are gods and goddesses as well.


The reason the goetia is a bit flat in describing their individual personalities is that the traditional view is based upon traditional judeo-christian dogma.


I feel they exist but our physical senses can’t perceive it.


Yes like they exist at the periphery of our senses, thats a good way to describe it.